Koyaanisqatsi

Fair enough.

sentinel00

I think you're funny looking.

The Loneliest Monk

Pope,

When one is dealing with what words mean, popularity plays a big role. If the majority of people use a word a certain way then that is what the word means. It is simply a fact that the majority of people have people like Koresh and his followers in mind when they use the term cult. And if that is what the majority of people mean when they use the term "cult", then that is what the term means. Koy or anyone else can attempt to ignore this if they wish. However, that does not alter the facts. Society does not apply the term "cult" to people like MLK. Nothing you find in Webster's will change that. Just like Webster's doesn't change the fact that "gay" no longer means "happy".

Koy simply wishes to associate all religious believers with people like Koresh and his followers. He isn't interested in being "technically correct" in his usage of the term. He is only interested in insulting the religious people that post here.

Viti

Monk, I have to say that you are incorrect. Popularity of usage does not create the definition of any word.

On this board the definition of the word theory often causes conflict.
In popular usage, especially among theists, the definition is
While Scientists and laypersons attempting to explain scientific theories use this one
Are the Scientists using the word incorrectly because the mainstream prefers a different definition?

Koys use of CULT is correct both in context and definition.

[ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: LadyShea ]</p>

David Gould

Koy is just calling a spade a bloody shovel. I am not saying I agree totally with his style but I can certainly see his point - dress it up how you like, all religions are cults. (Except the True One, of course. When everyone agrees on which one that is, let me know...)

-DM-

Sorry, but you are wrong.

There are basically two kinds of word definitions::
1.) Descriptive (based on usage, the way that the words are commonly used).
2.) Prescriptive (tending to be based on stable historical usage, word etiology, what is acceptable in formal writing).

It is, to some extent, the same with dictionaries. They tend to be either descriptive or prescriptive.

Generally, a dictionary will tell something of the philosophy of the editors in the introduction to the dictionary itself. Descriptive dictionaries are the norm and prescriptive dictionaries the exception in the same way that glass is the norm and crystal the exception.

The purely descriptive dictionaries provide no real sense of what is stable usage and what is likely to disappear by the next edition. Neither do they provide any idea of what is considered acceptable in formal writing, which is perhaps not a concern for most people, but essential in certain situations.

Some academic presses require their editors to use the Webster's Collegiate Dictionary which is more prescriptive than, for example, the Random House Dictionary. Further, Webster's generally lets you know when it is being descriptive by means of citations and usage paragraphs.

[this information courtesy of Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor, via the Internet]

---------

--Don--

chickensoupforthebowl

"Are the Scientists using the word incorrectly because the mainstream prefers a different definition?"

-That would depend on the context that a scientist is using the word "theory", and so your point doesn't really have any relevance here. One can easily hold that usage of word makes up the defintion, while at the same time holding that certain groups (scientists) use the same word differently. No one is saying that "cult" can't be defined in a very broad sense, but it's petty to continually label all religious people cult members in a negative way when the majority of people (including social scientists) take cult to be a small group of people, complete devotion to one leader, cut off from society, etc. So, while Koy's definition of "cult" may be technically correct, the way he uses it (in context) is in an insulting way, and he won't get any help from "scientists", simply because social scientists almost always take cult to refer to groups run by people like Koresh, Jones, etc., not groups around Martin Luther King Jr.

Further, the popular use of a term is what often leads to additional meanings in dictionaries, so I would say you're simply wrong to state that popular usage doesn't define words, simply because it does. . Dictionaries are made by people, and with each revision they have to take into account how words are used by people

"Koys use of CULT is correct both in context and definition."

-You're jumping the gun here. It may be correct in a technical sense of "definition", but that doesn't mean the use of the word is correct in context, and one can easily that Koy uses the word "cult" in a very negative sense. Further, there won't be much help coming from scientists or social scientists concerning "cult", since the literature, books, etc., concerning cults center on groups such as those run by Koresh, Jones, etc.
The term "God" is defined as both "a person or thing of supreme value" and "a powerful ruler" (in addition to other definitions), but one would look at you rather odd if you constantly used the term "God" in that sense, not in the popular usage of the term. Likewise, one is justified in seeing Koy's use of the term "cult" as rather odd, with an additional component that he is doing it as an insult.

[ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: ChickenSoupForTheBowl ]</p>

Viti

Here is the entire entry for the word theory from the American Heritage...which is correct?

copernicus

Just a slight quibble. The reality is that all dictionaries, including Random House (where I once did some work as a linguistic consultant) attempt to provide an idea of what is considered acceptable in formal writing. All reputable dictionaries have usage panels--experts on the use of formal and colloquial English--to rank words. The philosophical differences tend to be more terminological than real--whether to call something "colloquial" or "nonstandard". If a dictionary were to base its definitions on anything but actual usage, it would be useless.

One important thing to know about words is that it is perfectly legitimate for speakers to coin new words and to extend word usage in the way that Koy did. He used the word "cult" because it has the connotation of nonstandard or socially unacceptable religious practice. Most people who belong to cults would not describe themselves as belonging to a cult. Cults are to religions as colloquial word usage is to formal word usage. It is a matter of conventional social acceptability. Koy was using the word as a rhetorical device to convey his feelings about religion.

[ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: copernicus ]</p>

-DM-

My favorite definition of the word "cult":

Cult: A religion with no political power.
- Tom Wolfe (b. 1931), American journalist, author

--Don--