brighid

Psuedonymph,

No worries. I totally understand the pain and frustration, especially when it hits a very personal chord. I have also been known to be rather passionate in my own responses, so I understand!


Brighid

seebs

Not to be pushy, but I couldn't *imagine* my wife telling me not to be friends with women, or telling her not to be friends with men. I go out to dinner with my friends, male or female, sometimes. My wife and I are both sometimes out until midnight or later watching movies. This isn't cheating. Cheating is when you're in a monogamous relationship and you fuck someone else.

Ted Hoffman

seebs
Me too. But I wonder the relevance of this? Perhaps you misread what I had posted earlier?
Yeah, that is cheating alright. But its not the only way of cheating.

Pseudonymph
I am sorry I missed your earlier lengthy post which was a response to brighids.
And brighid and Gallimore, I appreciate your earlier responses and apologise for not having responded directly to them. I had not seen them.

I hope one response will be adequate for all of your posts.
Right now, since we cleared up the issue, I have been finding her cold somewhat, sending me brief, curt responses, not engaging me in any lengthy conversations even when I try to initiate some talk. Its disturbing but maybe I am simply paranoid.
I will try to be cool and not crowd her as brighid thinks might "scare" her away. I have never known people in love to be scared by the attention their loved ones need.
But I see this as a learning experience, however painful.
About the six years, over the years, we have discussed when we would like to be married. Six years ago, she said she would like to be married when she is 27. Same to me. We will be 27 in two months time.

I have thought about this - whether I have dragged my feet too long, whether she feels our marriage is long overdue - she said that we are not yet 27 and it can only be considered "late" when we pass that age.
We have been close. I call her every day. I tell her I love her every day. Every phone call ends with those three words. I try to get us to spend time together. I continually ask her if there is something she would like me to do, do better or do more. Sometimes she does, sometimes she doesnt. But whenever she does, I act on her suggestions.
Its been wonderful until Nov 18th.
You see brighid, when you detect a noticeable change in the habit of your SO, without understanding it, you have to start wondering - and if your wonder leads you to ask questions about the change, and you get prevarications and inadequate answers, its the nature of an intelligent being to ask even more and get their ears pricked.
If you think that is tantamount to tracking her etc, I am sorry, but I dont see how I could have reacted any other way. At the end of me "keeping track of her", I realize she is having a date with this man. So I really cant consider myself to have been paranoid.
About whether its okay for a woman to have a "nice time" with another man, I hope this page makes my position clear on that and I agree with sirenspeak on that (contra brighid).
I am going to propose and will not let this moment make me fold back and back out. If its ending, I will see that end. I have had a measure of grief since Nov 18th, but before that I have been happy, and I will go by that. Maybe she is going through a phase. Or it could be me going through a phase.
I asked her and told her how I felt about her friendship with that guy and she assured me she will not leave me and is deeply in love with me. She is the one that suggested she will end their phone calls and meeting(s).
There is nothing more I can do - I will have to go by that - I beleive her. I also beleive she deserves to get my commitment - in spite of the latest developments. And I also hope that that will turn things around to some extent.

About growing weary of the relationship brighid, that is possible. I have also at one time felt that way. It doesnt mean whe one grows weary, they get in a feverish prowl for a new relationship. And I have told her that. Her "good man" friend, I told her irrespective of the fact that he is a "good man", she has a BF and thats the man she should be spending her time with, not someone elses husband.

Gallimore I read your post and thanks for sharing your sentiments and experience.
I am of the firm belief that at the time, I have no reason to break up with her, when the time comes, it will be easy to know.
And we have broken up once.
I get your point about her lacking the guts to decide/ take responsibility. Its possible. But there could be other possibilities.
I have not known her to be after money. She "chose" me from many other guys at campus and I was a poor guy through and through.
But of course, perhaps she was just naive and could have changed since. If that is the case, I have not been able to see the signs that indicate it to be so.

I feel no urgency to probe her for other thoughts or ideas. I have never needed her like this before. It could be me going through a phase. For once, I am living alone (I have always lived with my brothers) - I lack the drive to cook and sometimes go to bed after taking a banana or so. The house is huge and empty.

Perhaps I just need to straighten out my life. Learn to live with myself and be happy by myself.
Yeah, I think thats what I need to do. But at the same time, she distracts me from doing exactly that. When I wanted to go for a movie alone (five weeks ago), she was disapointed that I could do something like that without her and we had to watch the movie three weeks later together.

Time to change the rules I guess.

Now, how to do this without making her notice there is a change?

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

HelenM

It sounds like she's hurt or angry or both.

But it doesn't sound like she had any choice regarding this man. What if there are things she'd like but she's not going to tell you because she doesn't feel you're open to hearing them?

This is just my opinion but - I'm not sure this is a great time to get engaged. It sounds like you still have some unresolved issues, if she will barely talk to you.

I strongly recommend you don't equate changing your mind with 'weakness'. The point is, do you both want to be together on each other's terms? If not then it would be foolish to propose just because you consider it would be 'weak' not to.

But...she did so under some pressure from you, it seems.

I see nothng wrong with that hope, but I think committing to be married based on a hope more than a reality is risky. I'm sure many people have got married hoping it will change their SO and it didn't, to their great disappointment.

I can't help wondering if your need for her to be with you is greater than her desire to be with you, at present. And if so are you sure you're compatible? I mean, if you feel this way now, then you're going to consider her obliged as your wife to come home if you feel lonely...do you think she'll be ok with that? She doesn't sound very ok at the moment if she will hardly talk to you.

When you write things like this my reaction is "You need her. But what's in it for her?"

I think so, because I think it's unfair to her to expect her to be 'the solution to your loneliness'. She has a life too...

I'm not sure what you mean by 'time to change the rules' and I'm not sure why you want her not to notice, if you do change them

I'm with brighid on this; your great neediness would put me off, I think. However if you can find a woman willing to accommodate that - if your SO likes that, then fair enough. But right now she sounds far from happy with you, based on what you said.

take care
Helen

[ December 21, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]</p>

Pseudonymph

Intensity...this is what it comes down to IMO. I am much like you in this respect and I'm a little surprised to not see more people agree with it. Maybe I'm a little strange. But to have friends like this of the opposite sex, only leads to one thing. Each time, everytime.

I have to leave now...sorry. I will try and think of more later.

seebs

I don't know if this is cultural, or biological, or what, but most of the people I know have opposite-sex friends without any problems. I don't think it's inappropriate for people to have these friends; I think that's too much jealousy for anyone to live happily with.

You have to have some basic trust in a potential spouse. "Going out for food" isn't always dating.

Here's the thing: If you'd be comfortable with her doing something with another woman, it shouldn't bother you too much if she does it with a man, unless we get into weird cultural exceptions like "women can shower in the same public shower".

LLaurieG

(Laurie) Intensity, I read your post. You're getting good advice here, especially from brighid. I'll keep my comments short.

If you were my boyfriend, you would drive me nuts and I would avoid you too. You may not believe you're insecure - but you are. You may reject that you arejealous - but you are.

Listen good. You cannot win any woman's heart (any woman worth having, that is) by CONTROLLING her. That's what your inquiry-campaign to her has been. "You're back home late. Whatcha been doing?" Control! Request/demands for information as to her doings: what and with whom, posing (transparently) as "friendly inquiry."

The only way you can win someone is by letting them go! The only way you can draw someone to you is by NOT being clingy. Her having an older married guy as a friend she talks to is threatening to you. That's too bad for you. Question: have you ever sacrificed a friend of yours, someone you just enjoyed talking with, because it "bothered" someone else? That kind of insecurity and sullen emotional manipulation ain't pretty, and I have news: this isn't going to end well for you.

I'm middle-aged, and a newlywed. I utterly adore and worship my gorgeous, well-adjusted, generous, genius, studly, 8-years-younger-than-me husband. But all my life, most of my best friends have been guys and still are. Do I have deep heart-to-heart talks with these guy friends? Yes! Does this threaten my husband? No! He doesn't get all pissy and prissy if I go shoot pool and drink beer with one, or have dinner and musical evenings with another. Grow up, Intensity. You're WAY overly invested in the woman. You need to step back, grow up, invest that energy in your OWN life, because, take my word for it: you will never be attractive to a worthwhile woman if you seek to "monitor" her behavior when she's not with you.

liquid

I'm going to give you some advice. It's probably inappropriate and a gamble, so it's not advice I expect you to follow. I just want you to have a look at it another way...

From all the signs I have read, it seems she is trying to push the relationship towards an edge. So call her bluff.

The first step is to make it exactly clear why you are unhappy with her behaviour. Sure it might be partly a jealous motivation, but that in itself does not make your concerns invalid or wrong. After all, it's because you love her that you care so much.

She may well conclude that you want to control her, to stop her seeing her friends. But your opinion is distinct to that - you don't mind her hanging out with men, but it is the manner in which she is doing so, the lack of communication and involvement on her part, and the secrecy that is the problem. And her being cold is just making it worse. That's clear to me, but it'll be hard to make that clear to her. It's very hard for people to find fault in their own actions because they are doing it from a different perspective.

She may well conclude you lack trust. But people earn trust, it is not the automatic by-product of a relationship. And secretively arranging to see a male for what could easily be construed as dates is no manner to earn trust.

Had you thought that her telling you more details about this man might be her way of trying to involve you? It may well not be, but I would counsel that meeting him is not such a bad idea, if a bit scary. Talk to him. Without the girl. Ask him directly if you like. If you do not clear this up with either him or your girl then you will never stop worrying.

And if that seems unfeasable, then make a break. If she can't or won't earn your trust, or talk to you, and if you both needs rules in your relationship, then maybe you aren't so right for each other. I think her uncommunicative, indirect and implicitly dishonest behaviour is no more mature emotionally than your jealously.

OK, I'm done stirring. I hope this doesn't get taken in the wrong way, but I REALLY think you need to take the initiative and DO something, not just react to her. Women seem to respond to that, and that's a bit of advice I would like you to follow.

Eudaimonist

I would agree with you, except she gave him good reason to be suspicious, even if she is innocent of wrong-doing. Perhaps he is insecure, but she was insensitive.

LLaurieG

(Laurie) "Gave him reason to be suspicious." Sounds disturbingly like the prologue to domestic violence, "blaming the victim." Possibly she was insensitive. But I know if someone starts intrusively quizzing me about my social comings and goings (my mother comes to mind), resenting the "interrogation," I begin giving vague, noncommittal replies. That's what this guy was doing: probing his girlfriend with personal questions, the answers to which were NOT his business.

My now-husband has an irritating ex-girlfriend I still have to contend with socially on occassion. Initially I was jealous of her but that stage quickly passed. Here's how I handled it. "Darling," I told him, "I am not one of those pathetic, insecure women who 'guilts' you into giving up friends you enjoy, indeed, once loved. So here's the deal. Regarding your continued friendship with Miss I-Don't-Personally-Care-For-Her, I do not have the 'need to know'. You have lunch with her. Stay friends! Do it on your own time, and don't even TELL me when you do. You are not leaving me for her. I know this and I trust you. I don't have the need to know. "

As I suspected she would in time, she revealed her true colors. Miss Obnoxious continues to privately email-invite my husband to events while excluding me. She even misspelled my name on the Christmas card.

I told now-hubby from the beginning: "If you ever want to walk, you can go. If you fall out of love with me, I'll break up with no regrets. I promise you here, now, in writing if you like, that we'll separate our things fairly and civilly. I'd miss you horribly of course, but life goes on, and it will for me."