Vanderzyden

Paraphrasing: It is a fact. It is a fact! It's is a FACT!

(Where have I heard that before?)

Considering this tone--which is an apparent characteristic of your replies--I have to wonder if you are intent on persuasion or outright INDOCTRINATION.

Hmmmm........

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ

Pointing out the undisputed is not indoctrination.

GeoTheo

Here's a technical reply:
God created humans in such a way that they would appear to the uninitiated to look like they share common ancestry with the great apes.
Just like the Earth was created with the appearance of age, humans were created with the appearance of having evolved.
Or apes are descended from humans due to harmful mutations. Their intelligence has been degraded over time. Their extra chromosome is caused by a fision. It occured seperately in all three species of great apes or perhaps all three ape species branched off after the fision. Since humans and apes are so similar, this does not involve macro-mutation only micro-mutation. Apes and humans are still the same "kind".
This theory doesn't even contradict the second law of thermodynamics, since it involves entropy.
How's that?
I don't buy it but I'm trying to help.

hezekiah jones

You heard it from yourself, parroting the Maximally Excellent™ Alvin Plantinga parroting Michael Ruse.

Skeptical

Try as I might, I couldn't find any exclamation points in my last post. Curious. I also pointed out several things that are indeed facts. If you deny them, post your argument instead of dancing around the question. Not sure how my "tone" is relevant to a question of fact.

Let's cut to the chase. Do you have an answer or not. If you need to do more research, do so. If it makes you feel better, I'll not say another word to you in this thread until you post your actual response. I wouldn't want my "tone" to interfere with your responding.

BTW, I responded to your other thread which you seem to think is more important that this one. I will await your response there as well.

Richiyaado

Vanderzyden, do this:

Get a bowling ball and, while standing erect, hold it straight out in front of you. Next, extend one of your feet and position it directly under the ball.

Now prove to me that the fact of gravity is mere indoctrination by letting go of the ball.

Skeptical

Ok, I've seen this argument in various forms before. The problem I see with it is that it make god out to be a trickster, sort of a micheivious demi-urge intent on fooling us poor humans. I don't find such an image particularly appealing or compelling, but it is an answer.

Interesting, but I don't think this is compatible with the DNA evidence. It appears that a fusion is much more likely than a fission. But again, it is an attempt to answer the question. I also don't think that many creationists would agree that apes and humans are the same "kind", at least not the ones I've debated.

Your assistance is appreciated. It points out that there are arguments to be made, even if they are not compelling. It serves as a refreshing alternative to evasive dodging of the question.

Darwin's Finch

From Aug. 13, 8:52pm:

Vanderzyden: "I welcome your challenge -- having seen this on other threads -- and I am ready to respond immediately."



To Skeptical (minutes ago):

Vanderzyden: "Considering this tone -- which is an apparent characteristic of your replies -- I have to wonder if you are intent on persuasion or outright INDOCTRINATION. Hmmmm........"

Given the "immediacy" with which you provided a substantive (read: scientifically relevant) response to the challenge, would you care to take a stab at what I think is an apparent characteristic of your replies, Vanderzyden? Hmmm........

Here's a hint: It has something to do with tap shoes.

Now put up or shut up. Can you falsify the scientific consensus or not? If not, please quit whining about indoctrination.

Vorkosigan

It's a fact, Vanderzyden, that you still have not provided data and arguments showing why this is not a problem for creationists.

Doubting Didymus

Just a quick note for geotheo: Your proposal that the chromosome similarity is caused by a fission does not explain the prescence of telomeres in the centre of the human chromosome, nor does it explain the prescence of two centromeres.

Also: Divergence from humans via harmful mutations does not explain why chimpanzees seem to have adapted perfectly to life in the treetops of jungles, or (and i'm not entirely certain here, so correct me if I am wrong), how they seem to have gained vitamin C synthesis, if they 'degenerated' directly from humans, who can not live in trees and have lost the ability to synthesise vitamin C.

I know that this was devils advocacy, and I applaud you admirable efforts to propose an alternative explanatory theory that is both testable and falsifiable. Well done.