Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RogerLeeCooke · 08-20-2002, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan:
<strong>[b]
You face this problem yourself. There are many values never covered in the Bible. For example, a huge class of social ethics. How do you find answers for whether/how:

(snip)

I could go on, but you get the idea. These are all moral questions, but they are not covered in the Bible. So how do you find your own values for them? Same as we atheists do -- by an ad hoc process of being taught by your parents and society, by studying the issues, by observing other cultures and societies, by developing ideas on your own, and so on. When you understand how you deevlop values for ethical questions not discussed in the Bible -- and there are millions -- you will understand how subjectivists (many of whom are Christians) function.

Vorkosigan</strong>

Not only that, many social values that Christians now support and are commonly believed to have Christian origins are actually condemned by the Bible. The virtue of resistance to a tyrannical government, for example, is implicitly condemned by Jesus and explicitly by St. Paul. Neither of these men ever said a word in defense of freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press, and *especially* freedom of religion.

snatchbalance · 08-20-2002, 04:46 PM

Kent,

Quote:

Yes, we are to emulate Jesus Christ but there are some things that we cannot emulate because they can only be done by God. Things like dying for the sins of many on the cross.

Yes, but we're not talking about godlike, or even heroic, activities. We're talking about plain old hypocrisy.

If JC didn't want his followers to be hypocrites, why was he a hypocrite?

SB

Kent Symanzik · 08-20-2002, 05:32 PM

Hi RogerLeeCooke,

Welcome to the discussion!

Quote:

Originally posted by RogerLeeCooke:
Actually there *are* multiple varieties of logic nowadays: two-valued, multi-valued, etc. But from the ordinary point of view, we all use the same informal logic. It doesn't require any justification. It is where our reasoning begins. No deductive system can justify within itself its own undefined terms and axioms. Experience will show whether a system gives correct results or not.

There is no question that we use logic and it gives results. The question is whether you have a worldview that comports with that fact. Atheistic worldviews that I know of cannot justify the existence of abstract universal laws of logic. But, atheists continue to use these laws and actually have a very high regard for rationality. But, in so doing, atheists are acting irrationally. On the one hand upholding the fact that we have these universal laws. On the other hand, denying any foundation that can support them.

We have the same situation with ethics but atheists seem to be quite willing to allow ethical systems to be subjective. But, what atheists seem to call subjective ethics is really not ethics at all. It is just a code of conduct because it does not actually differentiate between good and evil. Subjective ethics have no basis for ought. Subjective ethics can only be a code of conduct supported by reason of what brings pleasure or pain to the particular bag of chemicals at that particular time. This is not ethics, it is just an attempt to explain what is.

Kent

Kent Symanzik · 08-20-2002, 05:35 PM

Hi RogerLeeCooke,

Quote:

Originally posted by RogerLeeCooke:
Not only that, many social values that Christians now support and are commonly believed to have Christian origins are actually condemned by the Bible. The virtue of resistance to a tyrannical government, for example, is implicitly condemned by Jesus and explicitly by St. Paul. Neither of these men ever said a word in defense of freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press, and *especially* freedom of religion.[/QB]

I'm not disagreeing with the facts you present here but they have no bearing on the ethics of Christian theism. These these that you talk about are people's understanding of God's moral law. The variable is in the people not in what God revealed to us in the Bible.

Kent

Kent Symanzik · 08-20-2002, 05:41 PM

Hi snatchbalance,

Quote:

Originally posted by snatchbalance:
Yes, but we're not talking about godlike, or even heroic, activities. We're talking about plain old hypocrisy.

If JC didn't want his followers to be hypocrites, why was he a hypocrite?

I must have missed where you established that Jesus was a hypocrite. Previously, you thought that he was telling himself not to judge when he was telling his disciples not to judge hypocritcally. The problem here is that you keep confusing God with people. There is a huge distinction between the Creator and the creature. The laws that God applies to us do not necessarily apply to him. We are commanded not to murder. God cannot murder because all life is in his hands and he can do as he pleases with it. God commands us not to judge but he has every right to judge.

Kent

snatchbalance · 08-21-2002, 04:13 AM

Kent,

Quote:

I must have missed where you established that Jesus was a hypocrite

Well, JC said don't judge, and then turned around judged and damned people; that makes him a hypocrite. Now, you excuse this inconsistancy on the basis that he is god. Further, you stated that we cannot hope to emulate JC in all things because he is god.

I'll return to my original question: How can one know when to emulate JC, and when not to?

SB

snatchbalance · 08-21-2002, 04:30 AM

Kent,

In regards to your questions about logic, premises need to have some truth value. I can devise agruments that logically true, but have no value.

e.g.

All bozoes are blue.
Tom is a bozoe.
hence, tom is blue.

perfectly logical, but dosen't corresponde with anything.

(I'm sure there are some logicians out there who could expand on this if they wanted to.)

sb

Kent Symanzik · 08-21-2002, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by snatchbalance:
Well, JC said don't judge, and then turned around judged and damned people; that makes him a hypocrite. Now, you excuse this inconsistancy on the basis that he is god. Further, you stated that we cannot hope to emulate JC in all things because he is god.

I'll return to my original question: How can one know when to emulate JC, and when not to?

When you read in the bible about him doing something that only God can do then don't do that. For example, when you read that Jesus forgave sins you cannot do that.

When you read in the bible things that Jesus did that you can do then do that. For example, Jesus came as a servant. We should be servants.

Also, I cannot think of anything that Jesus did in which we should emulate that is not also commanded. For example, Jesus commanded us to be servants.

Kent

Keith Russell · 08-21-2002, 07:46 AM

Kent:

It's all hear-say.

The Bible says Jesus said...The Bible says God says...

The Bible only makes claims, and its claims are not supported by independently verifiable evidence, and thus cannot be rationally believed.

I am no one's servant.

Keith.

Kent Symanzik · 08-21-2002, 07:50 AM

Hi Kind Bud,

Quote:

Originally posted by Kind Bud:
what sacrifice? The story says Jesus rose after 3 days. Death did not claim him after all. So there was no sacrifice.

No, he did die. He was buried in the tomb and was there for 3 days. But, he rose from the dead thus defeating death. Believers will do the same at the second coming of Christ.

The sacrifice was his death. He was the perfect sacrifice that was able to satisfy the wrath of God for those who believe.

Kent

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08-21-2002, 04:30 AM	#177
snatchbalance Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CT Posts: 333	Kent, In regards to your questions about logic, premises need to have some truth value. I can devise agruments that logically true, but have no value. e.g. All bozoes are blue. Tom is a bozoe. hence, tom is blue. perfectly logical, but dosen't corresponde with anything. (I'm sure there are some logicians out there who could expand on this if they wanted to.) sb

08-21-2002, 07:46 AM	#179
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Kent: It's all hear-say. The Bible says Jesus said...The Bible says God says... The Bible only makes claims, and its claims are not supported by independently verifiable evidence, and thus cannot be rationally believed. I am no one's servant. Keith.

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