Freethought & Rationalism Archive

bonduca · 06-22-2002, 10:38 AM

luvluv, we welcome all opinions on this forum. But if we feel you unfairly perpetuate a stereotype of us, we share our perspective with you out of kindness and concern.

Have a Happy Birthday, and don't do anything we wouldn't do.

[ June 22, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]

Bible Humper · 06-22-2002, 10:55 AM

Quote:

I do not simply propose that the two things (objectification and sexuality) are separate, I propose them as being mutually exclusive. To the extent that a person, in the act of sex, ceases to be a unique human being, with a real history, real emotions, real intentions, the extent that they become a body ONLY, to the extent that they are themselves merely the APPARATUS of someone else's gratification... it is to precisely to that extent that they cease to be involved in their sexuality at all.

Objectification of people is the hallmark of the sociopath, vis-a-vis the lack of empathy for, and dehumanisation of, those who suffer their attentions. The assertion that women are objectified by us satyric males shows a lack of perspective, the common myth that men trade love for sex, and women trade sex for love, with no shades of gray.

A wide gulf exists between sex as an expression of love, and sex for the sake of sex. An even wider gulf between sex for the sake of sex with someone we don't love, and sex for the sake of sex with a mere erotic object.

Quote:

I propose that to the extent that women are objectified, they are prevented from coming into a real possession (perhaps the better word would be expression) of their sexuality.

You assert that women(and men?) are objectified to the degree that the act of sex flows from animal lust as opposed to expression of love. Sex can be, and often is, independant of love. The mistaken belief that the female appetite is sated by love alone, is the cause of much gaffawing in ladies' rooms around the world.

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There seem to be some women who, inexplicably, see the objectification of women as being a keystone to the expression of their sexuality.

No, not objectification, freedom from the societal taboos that bind them to one outlet of sexual expression, act of love.

Quote:

Women can only come in to possession of their sexuality by first coming into possesion of THEMSELVES. To posses themselves, they cannot submit to being the bit players in someone else's fantasies. After all, to be objectified is to become a thing that is useful only in it's utility to another person. A thing can have no value in itself, it is valuable solely to the extent that it gratifies it's user. A thing can possess nothing, and therefore it cannot possess itself.

Sex between two consenting adults as an expression of mutual desire, rather than love, is degrading to the woman, and the woman only? If you believe that this is degrading for the woman, why not the man? To lust for a person because of his or her desirability is not intrinsically dehumanising.

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I suggest a similar concern needs to be developed for women. A man should not even be able to get to a woman to question her decision to objectify herself: she should be already surronded by women taking her to task for playing the part of the whore.

NO! She should be surrounded by women who laugh at the taboos of the prudish. Being thought of as sexually desirable is not equivalent to being objectified. A woman can acknowledge her physical beauty without viewing herself as a talking blow-up doll.

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Yes, certainly sex is a physical act but it is also an intimate one, occuring between persons. In my own definition, sex should only occur between people who want to know each other.

Do you prefer steak to hamburger, Luvluv? I bet you do, but does that mean that you should never eat another burger?

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But it is not constructing a social mythology that their only, or their best function, is to hold things for you. The objectification is ever-present in our society; it's on television, in magazines, films, women are surronded by images of them that states that their highest achievement consists in being considered sexually attractive.

A woman who views herself as only worth her sexual attractiveness has self-esteem issues.

Luvluv, please explain why your standard is different for men. You talk about freeing women even as you fetter them.

vixstile · 06-22-2002, 11:00 AM

LaydyShea and bonduca,

Im not a woman, so i wont try to speak for women. But I am a man so I can speak for men.

When a man watches a striper, he doesn't see a mother, sister, daughter, or even a person really. A man just sees a sexual automaton. That applies almost any time a women sexually entertains a man. I don't think its just ingrained socially, its probably fundamentally male.

Now,I don't think its wrong (morally or otherwise).

I have no doupt that sexually entertaining men can be empowering, an expression of your womanly sexuality, and you may not care what the men think, but that isn't how men see it.

Even me, an enlighten man of the twenty first century, someone sympathetic to the plights of other people, cant help but when watching some jizz covered female with a hand shoved up her ass, view this person as somehow less than I.

I think all luvluv is trying to say is; If a women wants to rise above the negative images many men have about women, being a striper,or a porn star, or some other such occupation, aint gunnu do it.

[ June 22, 2002: Message edited by: vixstile ]

99Percent · 06-22-2002, 11:08 AM

luvluv: I do not want to control women, I want women to be free from the image of themselves as a sexual object...

Do you realize that you are contradiction yourself here? You claim you don't want to control woman yet you want them to portray themselves in an image which you think is the right one.

because it is that image which controls so many of them.

False, it is themselves who chose to enter into that image. Women, like all people, take advantage of what gives them economic freedom. If they have a features and abilities that are desirable by others, like any other person, and they are willing to trade value for value (which is objective value) then what right does it give you to stop this transaction between consenting individuals?

Far from wanting to control women, I believe that the abandonment of that image is the only way they will truly be free.

And who else is going to abandon that "image" but themselves? If you chose to look at women to what you consider is not an objectification so much the better for you, but that does not mean we are forced to submit to your subjective interpretation of what women "should be".

Your whole post boils down into the perversion of forcing your subjective values onto others.

The Other Michael · 06-22-2002, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv:
 Now, this would have been an impossible illusion unless black people PARTICIPATED in their own explotation. The same is true for women.

<snipping of text>

Speaking of jihads and the like, it is precisely the American image of the whore that some in the Middle East are so afraid of. Your exploting yourself as a sexual object only REINFORCES in the minds of men in those cultures of the need to "protect" their women. Please do not think that I mean to blame the phenomenon of burkhas on American women, I just say that it does absolutely nothing to liberate women everywhere and in it's own way reinforces the explotation of women.

Hi luvluv,

Enjoy your birthday celebrations.

Are you seriously saying that people can only be exploited if they participate in their own exploitation? Can you explain to me how those killed in the Holocaust did this?

I have some difficulties in what I see as your tendency to equate the terms "whore" and "sexually liberated woman".

And why would the middle east male feel "his" women were threatened by the western "whore"? Wouldn't he feel they were more threatened by the western males who do exploit women? Or is it that he would feel threatened by the possibility of a sexually liberated western woman acting as a positive role model to his purdah-confined women?

Many cultures do still seem to see women as chattel, and the "protectionist" mode of action is more (IMO) for protection of property rights in re women, rather than protecting their fragile psyche.

But I'm just an aging western white guy AKA oppressor of the downtrodden masses, what do I know from empathy etc?

cheers,
Michael

Viti · 06-22-2002, 02:05 PM

Happy Birthday luvluv enjoy. I leave you with these thoughts

As I stated I am now an executive with a high tech company. One of the things I do at my job is present our product to clients, train groups of people on its use and other promoting and support at conventions and such, the largest group I have addressed is 5000. Now, I guarantee the following

1. Someone in that group was pissed because I am woman in an executive position or thought I wasn't worthy of the job because of my gender and didn't hear a word I said

2. Someone in that group wondered what I look like naked and didn't hear a word I said

3. Someone in that group fantasized about having sex with me and didn't hear a word I said

4. Someone in that group thought my outfit was inappropriate, the wrong color, ugly, too severe, too revealing or something else and didn't hear a word I said

5. Someone in that group was worried that their SO was wondering what I look like naked or fantasizing about having sex with me and didn't hear a word I said

6. Someone in that group thought I wore too much makeup and should consider a breast reduction and I must be a whore and didn't hear a word I said

7. Someone in that group was writing their shopping list or playing games on their Palm Pilot or planning their vacation and didn't hear a word I said

and on and on and on. And the above is true for ANY person of either gender, of any race, size etc. Eliminating strip clubs, porno, prostitution will not change anything.

I cannot help these things, it is human nature to judge people on any number of things. Now, when it comes to negotiations....those that underestimated me are at a disadvantage and I will win or make a better contract because they think I am stupid or whatever. So, should I bind my breasts, shave my head and scar my face so there is no possibilty someone will think I am attractive? This is the real world...you learn to use other people's stupidity to your advantage.

Oh and by the way...women in the socalled "sex industry" do not want you to think of them as mothers, daughters, etc...they play right into the stereotype of sex object because men pay more for the fantasy...it's all an act to separate the stupid from their Benjamins. So go ahead and think the stripper is dumb and somehow beneath you or less human...she's taking home your money and using it to support herself and her family.

Hubby used to come to the club when I was working and laugh at the faces I or other girls made or comments we mouthed while the guy was staring at our tits and paying us for it. Who is the real loser?

[ June 22, 2002: Message edited by: LadyShea ]

seebs · 06-22-2002, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 99Percent:

because it is that image which controls so many of them.

False, it is themselves who chose to enter into that image.

I think a lot of women make that choice, but do not make an informed choice. This isn't something you can generalize from, but do you honestly think that every woman in the world who views herself as a sex object does so as a result of a conscious choice, having considered other alternatives?

Viti · 06-22-2002, 07:28 PM

seebs...many women see themselves as sex objects because that is what has been reinforced to them all of their lives starting from their mothers of all people...empowerment is recognizing the false image that is being forced on you from every angle and reflecting back your own version and using it to further your own goals.

Of course women all over the world simply accept the subservient roles and images that they had no part in creating and didn't ask for....they are the ones being exploited IMO

seebs · 06-22-2002, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LadyShea:
seebs...many women see themselves as sex objects because that is what has been reinforced to them all of their lives starting from their mothers of all people...empowerment is recognizing the false image that is being forced on you from every angle and reflecting back your own version and using it to further your own goals.

Of course women all over the world simply accept the subservient roles and images that they had no part in creating and didn't ask for....they are the ones being exploited IMO

Hmm. Maybe I'm just confused, but I see this as awfully close to being compatible with what luvluv is advocating. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but a huge amount of this debate sounds like violent agreement to me.

I think we all think that women should not have to be sex objects, and that at least some women who "choose" to be sex objects would not make that choice if it weren't for unhealthy social pressures, yes?

Viti · 06-22-2002, 07:53 PM

I am having so much trouble getting my thoughts and points across...I can't articulate it.

In almost any setting or situation, everyone is judging everyone else. Women deciding to NOT do porno or strip for example will not prevent them from being seen as sexual objects in other jobs or at the market or jogging down the street. Since it cannot be avoided nor changed (you cannot change the whole world), why not take advantage?

06-22-2002, 10:38 AM	#31
bonduca Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: . Posts: 1,653	luvluv, we welcome all opinions on this forum. But if we feel you unfairly perpetuate a stereotype of us, we share our perspective with you out of kindness and concern. Have a Happy Birthday, and don't do anything we wouldn't do. [ June 22, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]</p>

06-22-2002, 11:00 AM	#33
vixstile Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: California Posts: 2,029	LaydyShea and bonduca, Im not a woman, so i wont try to speak for women. But I am a man so I can speak for men. When a man watches a striper, he doesn't see a mother, sister, daughter, or even a person really. A man just sees a sexual automaton. That applies almost any time a women sexually entertains a man. I don't think its just ingrained socially, its probably fundamentally male. Now,I don't think its wrong (morally or otherwise). I have no doupt that sexually entertaining men can be empowering, an expression of your womanly sexuality, and you may not care what the men think, but that isn't how men see it. Even me, an enlighten man of the twenty first century, someone sympathetic to the plights of other people, cant help but when watching some jizz covered female with a hand shoved up her ass, view this person as somehow less than I. I think all luvluv is trying to say is; If a women wants to rise above the negative images many men have about women, being a striper,or a porn star, or some other such occupation, aint gunnu do it. [ June 22, 2002: Message edited by: vixstile ]</p>

06-22-2002, 02:05 PM	#36
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	Happy Birthday luvluv enjoy. I leave you with these thoughts As I stated I am now an executive with a high tech company. One of the things I do at my job is present our product to clients, train groups of people on its use and other promoting and support at conventions and such, the largest group I have addressed is 5000. Now, I guarantee the following 1. Someone in that group was pissed because I am woman in an executive position or thought I wasn't worthy of the job because of my gender and didn't hear a word I said 2. Someone in that group wondered what I look like naked and didn't hear a word I said 3. Someone in that group fantasized about having sex with me and didn't hear a word I said 4. Someone in that group thought my outfit was inappropriate, the wrong color, ugly, too severe, too revealing or something else and didn't hear a word I said 5. Someone in that group was worried that their SO was wondering what I look like naked or fantasizing about having sex with me and didn't hear a word I said 6. Someone in that group thought I wore too much makeup and should consider a breast reduction and I must be a whore and didn't hear a word I said 7. Someone in that group was writing their shopping list or playing games on their Palm Pilot or planning their vacation and didn't hear a word I said and on and on and on. And the above is true for ANY person of either gender, of any race, size etc. Eliminating strip clubs, porno, prostitution will not change anything. I cannot help these things, it is human nature to judge people on any number of things. Now, when it comes to negotiations....those that underestimated me are at a disadvantage and I will win or make a better contract because they think I am stupid or whatever. So, should I bind my breasts, shave my head and scar my face so there is no possibilty someone will think I am attractive? This is the real world...you learn to use other people's stupidity to your advantage. Oh and by the way...women in the socalled "sex industry" do not want you to think of them as mothers, daughters, etc...they play right into the stereotype of sex object because men pay more for the fantasy...it's all an act to separate the stupid from their Benjamins. So go ahead and think the stripper is dumb and somehow beneath you or less human...she's taking home your money and using it to support herself and her family. Hubby used to come to the club when I was working and laugh at the faces I or other girls made or comments we mouthed while the guy was staring at our tits and paying us for it. Who is the real loser? [ June 22, 2002: Message edited by: LadyShea ]</p>

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06-22-2002, 11:08 AM	#34
99Percent Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: my mind Posts: 5,996	luvluv: I do not want to control women, I want women to be free from the image of themselves as a sexual object... Do you realize that you are contradiction yourself here? You claim you don't want to control woman yet you want them to portray themselves in an image which you think is the right one. because it is that image which controls so many of them. False, it is themselves who chose to enter into that image. Women, like all people, take advantage of what gives them economic freedom. If they have a features and abilities that are desirable by others, like any other person, and they are willing to trade value for value (which is objective value) then what right does it give you to stop this transaction between consenting individuals? Far from wanting to control women, I believe that the abandonment of that image is the only way they will truly be free. And who else is going to abandon that "image" but themselves? If you chose to look at women to what you consider is not an objectification so much the better for you, but that does not mean we are forced to submit to your subjective interpretation of what women "should be". Your whole post boils down into the perversion of forcing your subjective values onto others.

06-22-2002, 07:28 PM	#38
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	seebs...many women see themselves as sex objects because that is what has been reinforced to them all of their lives starting from their mothers of all people...empowerment is recognizing the false image that is being forced on you from every angle and reflecting back your own version and using it to further your own goals. Of course women all over the world simply accept the subservient roles and images that they had no part in creating and didn't ask for....they are the ones being exploited IMO

06-22-2002, 07:53 PM	#40
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	I am having so much trouble getting my thoughts and points across...I can't articulate it. In almost any setting or situation, everyone is judging everyone else. Women deciding to NOT do porno or strip for example will not prevent them from being seen as sexual objects in other jobs or at the market or jogging down the street. Since it cannot be avoided nor changed (you cannot change the whole world), why not take advantage?

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