AquaVita

All the analogies to circumcision for males comparing to female circumcision are flawed because you are comparing apples and oranges. Femaile circumcision carries a very different purpose and message.

And yes, I can honestly say that I feel no shame in being glad that my bits are better looking according to how most women feel. What is so wrong with wanting the same thing for ones son? Why did people jump all over ex-xian simply because he'd like his son to have every possible advantage? (your son will thank you later)

And I'm no doctor, but to me, it just makes logical sense that there is a cleanliness and odor issue here. Any dark, damp area that is surrounded by skin on your body is going to develop body odors and other unpleasant things. (Think armpits)


And the decreased sensitivity? Please. I consider that a benefit above all others. I can last as long or as short as I want. Never had any complaints and the sex is great.

But of course, to each his own. But I just get tired of hearing how my parents "took part of my manhood" away when I was born. That to me, reeks of old school "be a real man" crap.

Derec

While female circumcision is certainly more intrusive than male circumcision the message and purpose, at least after the medical benefit had been debunked, are the same.

Female circumcision (also known as female genital mutilation) is carried out mostly for the purpose of increasing the marriage chances of the female. Sound familiar?

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And yes, I can honestly say that I feel no shame in being glad that my bits are better looking according to how most women feel. What is so wrong with wanting the same thing for ones son?

[WOMAN IN SUDAN]
And yes, I can honestly say that I feel no shame in being glad that my bits are better looking according to how most men feel.
What is so wrong with wanting the same thing for ones daughter?
[/WOMAN IN SUDAN]

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But of course, to each his own. But I just get tired of hearing how my parents "took part of my manhood" away when I was born. That to me, reeks of old school "be a real man" crap.

What's wrong with being a "real man"?

UMoC

eldar1011

By that same token, raising a boy as a theist will also increase his popularity amongst most American women. But, I'm fairly certain that reasoning wouldn't hold for most atheists.

More to the point, I think this argument is incredibly weak. There's gotta be more to attracting women than the state of your penis. Spending time developing those traits will probably be more effective than having a penis that conforms to a changing cultural norm.

Again, paying attention to personal hygiene would reduce cleanliness and odor as an issue with an intact penis, just as it would with smelly armpits. And while I don't have any personal experience, I'm relatively certain that even a circumcised penis will suffer from bad odor if personal hygiene is neglected.

Being uncircumcised, I can still make the same claim as you have above.

Here I have to agree with you. I don't think a circumcised man is any less of a "man". I think that, barring extreme cases, there's little difference in the quality of life between circumcised and uncircumcised men. I don't think circumcised men are harmed in any lasting way.

However, I do not think circumcision is a good thing. I don't think it can be justified beyond cultural traditions rooted in primtive practices or "I want my boy to be like me" attitude. And I find that inflicting a permanent change like that on a child for wholly unnecessary reasons to be distasteful.

I'm just glad that we had a daughter. It would've been a BIG ISSUE with my family, if we had a son.

AquaVita

No it's not familiar. Again, it mutilates and makes the genitals essentially worthless in a female(if I understand the process correctly)

I am not a woman in Sudan. I am a man in the USA. Apples and Oranges.

Nothing at all. I would posit that I myself am a real man. However, I despise the "all american beer guzzling real man" mentality that we are only as good as our dicks allow us to be, and therefore if we're missing any part of that holy rod, that we are less among men. Not for me in the least.

AquaVita

Of course, and I would highly discourage any parent from doing that "just because". But really, where do we draw the line between just helping a boy out in such a way, and brainwashing him?

Oh absolutely!

It isn't the first thing they see, after all. (hopefully )

But to me, it's an issue of really being attracted to someone. I can honestly say that to me, an uncircumsized penis is incredibly ugly. It's just how I feel. Some may feel the exact opposite. But in all my conversations with women, my thoughts are reflected. I'm not trying to use the ol' argumentum ad populum here, but it's just a question of advantages and disadvantages.

Sure it would. No question about that.

But if I had my choice, I'd much rather take the less maintanance route.

Indeed. No argument here.


Sure enough. This is obviously a case by case basis. But it has been proven that cut men are less sensitive in that regard, so it must certainly be easier for us to keep a better control level.


That's extremely refreshing to hear.


I think this is dependant upon the man. It just seems that things would be easier for those uncut. I guess that's just the route I would prefer.

ex-xian

Aquavita, I agree with everything you wrote, and you saved me the trouble of typing it!

But I do want to reiterate that the comparison between circumcision and female genital mutilation is a false one. In one, a bit of overlapping skin in nipped off and in the other drastic damage is done to the genital area.

Has anyone been watching FX's new series Nip/Tuck? Whatever you think of the show, is had the first display of this issue in popular media that I've ever seen. The show is about, briefly, the lives of two Florida plastic surgeons. The teenage son of one of the doctors was not cut, and he had been asking his dad to perform the surgery. The only reason that he wanted it was because he was nervous about his girlfriend's reaction to seeing his uncut penis.

In a scene where he was going to have sex with the gf for the first time, she wanted to see the parts before making the deal, and slipped her head off screen. When she came back she said, "It looks like a sharpey (sp?)" and told him that she just wanted to make out that day. Well the boy was so devestated that he tried to do his own circumcision at the end of the episode.

I know this is only a TV show, but I beleive that art reflects culture, and the girls attitude is by far the majority one.

eldar1011

First, I have to say again that I really don't think there's all that much difference in the day-to-day life between circumcised and uncircumsed men. Ultimately, the decision is a personal one or a parental one.

However, I find this justification to be troubling. I can't fathom how changing your body so drastically simply to satisfy a majority opinion is a good idea. I'm not referring to the DIY circumcision, but the practice in general.

I'm a pretty independent person. If a woman is going to reject me simply because of the state of my penis, well then it's certainly not my loss. I'm willing to change to satisfy some of my partner's wishes. Sure, I'll lose weight. I'll get a hair cut. I'll dress better. But, to permanently alter my body through surgery simply to satisfy someone else's notion of beauty is insane.

But, if we're not talking about a long-term loving relationship and we're talking about simply getting laid...well, there are far more effective means of achieving that goal than having a circumcised penis.

Derec

It decreases sexual pleasure for the woman, yes. That was not my point, however.
It is being done because the culture there treats it as a norm and many men prefer their women so. I.e. same attitude you have for defending male circumicision in the US.

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I am not a woman in Sudan. I am a man in the USA. Apples and Oranges.

Exactly. That's why your similarity in thinking is so important to point out.

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Nothing at all. I would posit that I myself am a real man. However, I despise the "all american beer guzzling real man" mentality that we are only as good as our dicks allow us to be, and therefore if we're missing any part of that holy rod, that we are less among men. Not for me in the least.

Wouldn't it be the "all-american beer-guzzling" mentality that is so pro circumcision? I mean the rate is the highest in the so-called heartland.

UMoC

Guillaume

60% ??? USA is even dumber than I had ever imagined....

Where I live the Circumcision Incidence Rates is less than 1%.....

AquaVita

Yeah, but we're talking legal here.


Your position is an understandable one. But how is it really so drastic?