Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ron Garrett · 07-22-2003, 01:14 PM

Damn if there ain't a movie script in there some where.

seanie · 07-22-2003, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill
Excuse me? Can you provide any credible documention on this claim? Like, perhaps, a BBC news story?

== Bill

It's probably a reference to Pat Finucane, an irritatingly good lawyer who sucessfully defended a number of suspected IRA members. He was murdered at the suggestion of and in collusion with members of the British security services. However it's pretty unlikely the conspiracy extended up to higher political levels.

That's not to say the British government wasn't up to its neck in other extrajudicial activities. There's little doubt they authorised a shoot to kill policy during the 80's.

However the idea that Dr Kelly's death was anything other than suicide seems kinda ludicrous. Apart from anyting else it's put them even deeper in the shit.

Ultron · 07-22-2003, 09:07 PM

Yeah if he's the main source of the BBC's claims then they are up a creek. However he's said there's no way he could be the main source. I think he wasn't the main source (taking him at his word) and that the BBC hasn't had much to go on.

They need to produce a new main source, and have it be correct this time, or this will be one more stain on their reputation.

seanie · 07-23-2003, 02:04 AM

Quite what other stains on the BBC's reputation you're referring to I'm not sure. And while I doubt anyone will come out of this untarnished the Government will probably come out worse than the BBC. The BBC at least seems to have taken care to gather some supporting evidence. Gilligan reportedly took contemporaneous notes on a palm pilot and Susan Watts of Newsnight taped conversations with Kelly.

There's more here.

Watts source reportedly said;

Quote:

"It was a statement that was made and it just got out of all proportion. They were desperate for information, they were pushing hard for information which could be released. That was one that popped up and it was seized on and it's unfortunate that it was.

"That's why there is the argument between the intelligence services and the Cabinet Office/No 10 - because they picked up on it and once they've picked up on it, you can't pull it back from them."

If they do have that on tape the BBC is pretty much in the clear, and the Government is in deep trouble. They after all instigated this whole row.

Blixy Sticks · 07-23-2003, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Suaup
This is just part of a long string of microbiologist deaths. It's funny that people are still not connecting the dots. Basically the world's top microbiologists have been selectively dying since November, 2001. They all just happened to have killed themselves, or died in mysterious ways (One just fell off a bridge while changing his tire.) We're talking 15+ of the top experts, the ones who would respond in a world crises. Kelly is just another on the long list of deaths here.

No one is asking what's going on, but in the event of a epidemic we've lost many of our top minds. Who is killing these microbiologists? and why?

http://globeandmail.workopolis.com/s...ection=Science

This focuses on a couple of the deaths (11 of them.) To say this is just a coincidence, they're killing themselves, or are just randomally dying, is to shrug off what's really happening.

Supposing there is a conspiracy, any ideas on who and why?

Part of an Al Qaeda Master Plan to attack the West with biological weapons?

Part of a Master Plan hatched by the conservative power group behind the Bush Administration, perhaps to thin the world's burgeoning population thus alleviating some of the strain on ever diminishing resources?

contracycle · 07-23-2003, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill
Excuse me? Can you provide any credible documention on this claim? Like, perhaps, a BBC news story?

http://www.serve.com/pfc/

Quote:

The PFC is named in memory of Pat Finucane, a human rights lawyer from Belfast who was murdered in front of his wife and children on 12 February 1989 by the pro-British UDA. Pat had successfully challenged the British Government over several important human rights cases. One of those involved in his murder, Brian Nelson, was working for the Force Research Unit an undercover unit of British Military Intelligence.

Quote:

Judge set to call for Finucane inquiry

Henry McDonald, Ireland editor
Sunday July 6, 2003
The Observer

A retired Canadian judge investigating collusion between the security forces on both sides of the Irish border and terrorists will recommend that a full public inquiry be held into the murder of Pat Finucane.
Judge Peter Cory's report into four controversial killings during the Troubles has been completed. All documents, papers and police files relating to the murders have been locked away in an office at the Canadian High Commission in London until their release in October.

But The Observer has learnt that in the Finucane case Cory will call for a public inquiry into the Belfast solicitor's murder, arguing that there is evidence that the security forces colluded with his UDA killers.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_ne...992428,00.html

Also worth reading:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/st...988928,00.html

http://www.serve.com/pfc/rosemary/rosemary.html

The british state is arguably the most thoroughly cynical of the developed states. It has an enirely pragmatic approach to the manitenance of its power, refined and honed through several centuries of monarchic rule. Let us not forget, we are subjects, not citizens, and there is no explicit social contract that requires the Crown to consider our individual wellbeing (except the European human rights legislation of recent vintage).

And lets not forget:

There were six men in Birmingham
In Guildford there's four
That were picked up and tortured
And framed by the law
And the filth got promotion
But they're still doing time
For being Irish in the wrong place
And at the wrong time
In Ireland they'll put you away in the Maze
In England they'll keep you for seven long days
God help you if ever you're caught on these shores
The coppers need someone
And they walk through that door"
- The Pogues

Blixy Sticks · 07-23-2003, 07:19 AM

Can we please prevent this from turning into a bitch session about the IRA issue. It is, at best, only remotely related to the topic at hand.

contracycle · 07-23-2003, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blixy Sticks
Can we please prevent this from turning into a bitch session about the IRA issue. It is, at best, only remotely related to the topic at hand.

Well yes and no. The British government has blood on its hands, and lots of it. What we cannot do is proceed from the prurient assumption that one or other government "wouldn't do that sort of thing". Why not?

seanie · 07-23-2003, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by contracycle
Well yes and no. The British government has blood on its hands, and lots of it. What we cannot do is proceed from the prurient assumption that one or other government "wouldn't do that sort of thing". Why not?

Well in this instance it makes absolutely no sense. The death of Dr Kelly has put the Government in deeper trouble. It's a PR disaster. Campbell's dead in the water, Hoon may well have to resign, Blair's vulnerable and they've had to convene exactly what they didn't want. A judicial inquiry which they may not be able to control. His death just produced a whole series of negatives for them and no discernable benefits.

Leaving aside any questions of morality it makes no practical sense.

contracycle · 07-23-2003, 08:08 AM

Neither did killing Pat Finucane, in the long run.

Never underestimate the stupidity of bureacracy, or attribute undue wit to government. Or even conspiracy: "Who will rid me of this troublesome priest"....

But please - I am most certainly not claiming he was bumped off by MI5. What I am saying is, we cannot simply rule it out.

A sample scenario: Kelly spoke to the reporters and they reported it accurately. He's outed by No.10 and compelled to lie to the select committee. But - he is a man of principle and a Baha'i; maybe its likely that he will later recant his evidence. Now he can't. Scandals come and scandals go - but dead men don't testify.

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07-22-2003, 01:14 PM	#51
Ron Garrett Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: United States Posts: 1,657	Damn if there ain't a movie script in there some where.

07-22-2003, 09:07 PM	#53
Ultron Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: here Posts: 738	Yeah if he's the main source of the BBC's claims then they are up a creek. However he's said there's no way he could be the main source. I think he wasn't the main source (taking him at his word) and that the BBC hasn't had much to go on. They need to produce a new main source, and have it be correct this time, or this will be one more stain on their reputation.

07-23-2003, 07:19 AM	#57
Blixy Sticks Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Until recently, Baghdad Posts: 1,365	Can we please prevent this from turning into a bitch session about the IRA issue. It is, at best, only remotely related to the topic at hand.

07-23-2003, 08:08 AM	#60
contracycle Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: London Posts: 1,425	Neither did killing Pat Finucane, in the long run. Never underestimate the stupidity of bureacracy, or attribute undue wit to government. Or even conspiracy: "Who will rid me of this troublesome priest".... But please - I am most certainly not claiming he was bumped off by MI5. What I am saying is, we cannot simply rule it out. A sample scenario: Kelly spoke to the reporters and they reported it accurately. He's outed by No.10 and compelled to lie to the select committee. But - he is a man of principle and a Baha'i; maybe its likely that he will later recant his evidence. Now he can't. Scandals come and scandals go - but dead men don't testify.

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