GunnerJ

Hmmm... It'd be interesting to take a poll on the subject, but the last five or six times I've seen an ex-theist talk about what their old religion was, "Catholic" was the answer. This includes me. Tell me, Albert, does this make Catholocism an "incubator for atheism?" This idea of religions that foster secularism was an idea that I started contemplating today, but with your religion as the test model. Let's see a show of hands: Who's an ex-Catholic atheist? And how many would have to raise their hands in order for you to retract your statement, Albert?

Albert Cipriani

Dear Rimstalker,


A show of hands won't cut it. Why? Because Catholic catechesis today is in the same sorry shape as it is in Protestantism. Put another way, if I relied on the structural organs of the Church to teach me my Catholic Faith, I, too, would be an atheist.

Only by relying on yourself to dig into Catholic history and philosophy can one arrive at a rational foundation for Faith. But in the fog of today's universal apostasy, neither Catholics nor Protestants stand on that rational foundation.

Difference being, of the 5% of theists who are honest enough, courageous enough, and intellectually bent enough to dig for a way to justify God's ways to man, only the Catholic theists will have a chance of making any discoveries. Protestants will only find the broken shards of Catholic pottery in the subjectivistic muck of their tradition.

Atheism is a petulant response to the milquetoast served as religious instruction today. How many times can one bare "Jesus loves you" as the be-all and end-all of every question? In the I'm OK your OK can't we all get along atmosphere of the Rodney King school of theology the world has been forcibly enrolled in today, all important questions go begging. You can stand pat and beg to your dying day, or dig for the answers.

Atheists aren't into begging. So I'm here to motivate you into digging. – Cheers, Albert the Traditional Catholic

GunnerJ

Interesting... I've heard the "Catholics aren't true Christians!" line before, but never from a Catholic. Say, Albert, refresh my memory, when did the Pope abdicate authority over what the Catholic church's actual teachings and dogma are to you?

Albert Cipriani

Dear Rimstalker,
The Protestants are right: Catholics aren't Christians. We're much more than that. Christianity is a subset of Catholicism. I like the title of CS Lewis's book, "Mere Christianity." If I were a mere Christian, I would not be Catholic.

The Pope cannot abdicate authority or contradict a single Church dogma. If he did, then the Church would prove itself to not be indefectible (a defide belief). If that were to happen, the Catholic Church will have proved itself to be a fraud and cease to exist. I would then be faced with three choices: Judaism, pantheism, or suicide.

To give you a colloquial answer, starting with the Second Vatican Council, circa 1962, the hierarch of the Catholic Church has been in a state of apostasy. They've structurally instituted the heresy of Modernism. Thus, it is hard to find a Catholic today that does not reject some aspect of the Church's infallible Magisterial teaching.

Our situation is worse today than in the 4th century when 80% of the hierarchy subscribed to the Arian heresy. Today, it's far closer to 99%. These are sad a troubling times for me.

One must distinguish, tho, from evil men within the bosom of the Church and the bosom of the Church. The pope spouting scandalous ambiguities, asking heathens to forgive the heroism of her sons and daughters, kissing the Koran, is the mud splattered on the bosom of the Church. It is not that bosom.

So long as the Pope does not infallibly teach something contradictory to what the Church has infallibly taught before, the heart of the patient still beats. – Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic

Vorkosigan

Yeats, of course. But I like the way it swoops up by ending on hold, and then the comic "the waistline" in the second line. Works extremely well.

And to think I thought life had plenty to offer without gods. Why is it that you are empty without something Outside to fill you up? Especially when you have some little talent in the poetic line? Creation can be very fulfilling.

Michae

sir drinks-a-lot

Recommendations? So far I have City of God, Confessions, A grammar of Assent, and a slew of Bernard Lonergan under my belt. I thought the Lonergan was interesting but, alas, I am still an Atheist.

Albert Cipriani

Dear Michael,
The technical term for "swoop" etc. to which you appreciatively refer is "enjambment." You are a sensitive reader to pick up on such subtleties.

You ask:


Why do donuts have holes in them? It's a function of the fabric of reality itself that God is all that is and we are ex nihilo. Our sense of self, talents, personality, all these things are masks that distract us from the nothing we are derived from and the truth that all things are the ultimate donut.

My favorite line in the movie "Tombstone" (one of the best Westerns) is when Doc Holiday answers Wyatt Erps question of what makes Ringo such a murderous bastard. I paraphrase:


This is an apt expression of the human condition. The only reason most people don't realize how apt it is, is that most people have poor powers of extrapolation. Imagine your life lasting 900 years? Do you start to see the masks coming down, the distractions wearing thin, the talents becoming passé? As Saint Augustine said, "We cannot rest until we rest in Thee." Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Albert Cipriani ]</p>

bgponder

Dear Bro. Albert,

This is a cool thread. I am enjoying it immensely and promise only to really blast you in the other thread over yonder.

Wyatt: "Doc--what makes a man like Ringo do the things he does?"

Doc: "A man like Ringo...'s got a great big empty hole inside him...and he can never steal enough, or kill enough, or inflict enough pain to ever fill it."

Well, Albert, gotta disagree--this is an apt expression of Johnny Ringo's human condition. I have OK powers of extrapolation, and my condition ain't like this a-tall. My chains don't chafe me. I am quite enjoying my life, though I wish it had a little more money in it, I am quite enjoying being the "natural man", and living for the simple things. And a big part of that is because life does not last 900 years, By God. We'd all better enjoy it as much as we can while we're here, because it's the only thing we know for a fact, my friend.

I absolutely do, however, agree with you about Protestantism being an incubator for atheism. What do you get when you mix self-honesty, a lot of questions to the preacher, and the Bible Belt? Atheism!! Voila.

If God does exist, I hope He's the Catholic Version. Purgatory, I can buy.

BTW, Albert:

Lighten up and eat some cornbread. Hot out of the stove with butter on top. For a twist try cutting a wedge lengthwise and putting mayo inside. Yum, yum. Iced tea on the side. All you need.

Peace, and (see above) Barry

DarkDruid

Of course, right before the door closes, you hear a loud *bang* and a muffled thud, and then the warden comes out and bellows, "Next!"

Koyaanisqatsi

Well, Albert, I'm still awaiting your response to my first post, but I fear it will never come so on to what you said in the last one.

Although I sense little more than pointless platitudes about to be hurled my way, again I ask, why?

Look at the wording you chose. "...if it got you to see yourself as a failure." So, for you, the purpose of the cult is to deliberately force you to see yourself as something that you are not.

Why?

Well, you're just brimming with postivity. Again, why?

To what end? If, as you claim, the purpose is to see yourself as a failure, then what is the purpose of "buiding" upon that? So that you no longer see yourself as a failure, which was the original state of affairs until the cult made me feel like I was a failure.

And, while we're at it, let's qualify that failure; failure as a human being. Worthless. Inherently worthless.

Not the way I actually felt about myself as a child until they made me feel that way.

So, let's recap. I never considered myself a failure as a human being until a cult forced me to feel like a failure as a human being so that I could then build on that false feeling to what end?

Ahh, there's one of those pointless platitudes, signifying nothing. How quaint of you to to slip in the word "illusion" all of a sudden. You've been indoctrinated well, my son.

Most illusions do come tubmbling down, but that's not what we were talking about, now was it?

I didn't walk into the cult as a child feeling I was a success. It wasn't an either/or, but I sure as shit walked out of the cult feeling like a failure. Do you understand the distinction here?

I was tabla rassa going in and forced to think I was a failure coming out having done absolutely nothing other than be born.

There was no choice between success or failure; they were not and are not flipsides of the same coin, so kindly do not conflate them in platitude, yes?

Build what?

And you've established this "metaphysical truth" from what? From being indoctrinated into a cult.

You can't "start" from something that is not an original form. The only reason you believe you were born "slime" is that you were told that you were born slime.

More pointless platitudes. Again, you have been nothing more than indoctrinated to think that your core is hollow. It doesn't even make any sense from your own warped theology since what you were "filled with" in creation was god.

So, again, let's recap and I'll even try to use your vague poetry. God created you by filling you with existence in order for the cult to drill holes in that tabla rassa so that you could then fill yourself with god.

Why don't you just cut out the middlemen and revert to your natural state; being filled with god? Are you arguing that only man can hollow you out so that you can then fill yourself with what they took away?

Again, to what end? What's the point? You've walked a hundred miles around the town in order to stand up.

Why not just stand up?