Evangelion

Oh dear. Now you've really dropped your gloves, m8.

:boohoo:

River

Well, Islam is based on Reasoning and Faith. Unlike other Religions that are based only on Faith( i.e the implication of knowledge being too dangerous and the Tree of Knowledge of Bible). However, the Muslims of today have lost the way, and have become quite ignorant. This however, was not the Original Iman Islam (Pure Islam)


Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

"Seek knowledge even as far as China."

godfry n. glad

Hmmm... That a significant portion of the Jewish communities spread throughout the Roman world (the Diaspora) wanted a Hebrew bible in a language they could read and understand?

So... What's the purpose of the Masoretic text? Was it not at variance with the LXX?

It's been my understanding that there were significant communities within 1st century CE Judea where Aramaic was the preferred language. And... It's my understanding that the Temple priests did NOT use the LXX, but relied instead upon a Hebrew bible in either Aramaic or Hebrew or both.

I suspect that we should jettison the concept that one language excluded the other and accept that both koine Greek and Aramaic were spoken in Judea during the 1st century CE. Some communities were more Hellene in outlook and Greek dominated, while others were more conservative regarding Hellenization and held to Aramaic as the primary language, with sizeable portions of the population conversant in both languages to varying degrees. Further, I'd suspect that those proficient in Greek were probably more likely to be members of the wealthy urban aristocratic minority, while those with poor, or entirely lacking, Grecophonic skills were more likely to be members of the huge and largely rural artisan and peasant class.

godfry

EstherRose

Islam argues that Jesus' promise to send the Paraclete is a reference to the coming of Muhammad. Sura 61:6 refers to Mohammed as “Ahmed” (periclytos) which Islam claims is the correct rendering of the Greek paraclete. There are over 5300 New Testament manuscripts with paraclete not periclytos. They are 2 distinct and separate words.

Some reasons why the Counselor cannot be Mohammed.

1. Jesus identifies the Counselor as the Holy Spirit in John 14:26.

John 14:
25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

2.The Counselor was to be given to Christ’s apostles and was to testify about Jesus not Mohammed.

John 14
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

John 15
26"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

3.The Spirit would abide with God’s followers forever.

See verse John 14:16 above

4. Jesus affirmed the apostles know the Counselor.

See verse John 14:17 above.

5.The Counselor would be sent in Jesus’ name.

See verse John 14:26 above.

6.The Counselor would be in you (in apostles). (17)

See verse John 14:17 above.

7. Would glorify Jesus.

John 16
13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.

8. The Counselor cannot be seen.

See verse John 14:17 above.

9.The fulfillment of these words took place 10 days later at Pentecost.

Acts 1
4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

The verses in question.

John 16:5-16
5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief.7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
16"In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."

Yet, anyone reading the context can see that this is a prediction of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Taken another way, the Paraclete of John cannot be referring to Muhammad for the following reasons:

1. The Paraclete could not be seen by human eyes, but would indwell the disciples at the same time.

John 14
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

This could not possibly be referring to Muhammad because people did see him. Secondly, the Paraclete could dwell within a group of individuals at the same time, making him immaterial and omnipresent. These, being the attributes of divinity, tend to suggest that the Paraclete is God.

2. The Paraclete is the Holy Spirit

John 14:
25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

In orthodox Islamic belief, the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel. This fact would disprove the notion that Muhammad is the Paraclete, since this would make him Gabriel.

3. According to the Holy Scriptures, the Paraclete was to bring glory to Jesus Christ, and yet Muhammad “glorified” Allah. (16:13-15)

John 16
13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

Taking the idea of Muhammad as the Paraclete to its natural conclusion, we may claim then that Jesus Christ is Allah, the God of Muhammad.
The Paraclete did arrive as predicted, not 600 years later but ten days after the ascension of Jesus to heaven as seen in Acts 2:1-36. Snippets below.

Acts 2
3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
35until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." '
36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

EstherRose

As I demonstrated in another thread, this is false.

Islam argues that Jesus' promise to send the Paraclete is a reference to the coming of Muhammad. Sura 61:6 refers to Mohammed as “Ahmed” (periclytos) which Islam claims is the correct rendering of the Greek paraclete. There are over 5300 New Testament manuscripts with paraclete not periclytos. They are 2 distinct and separate words.

Some reasons why the Counselor cannot be Mohammed.

1. Jesus identifies the Counselor as the Holy Spirit in John 14:26.

John 14:
25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

2.The Counselor was to be given to Christ’s apostles and was to testify about Jesus not Mohammed.

John 14
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

John 15
26"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

3.The Spirit would abide with God’s followers forever.

See verse John 14:16 above

4. Jesus affirmed the apostles know the Counselor.

See verse John 14:17 above.

5.The Counselor would be sent in Jesus’ name.

See verse John 14:26 above.

6.The Counselor would be in you (in apostles).

See verse John 14:17 above.

7. Would glorify Jesus.

John 16
13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.

8. The Counselor cannot be seen.

See verse John 14:17 above.

9.The fulfillment of these words took place 10 days later at Pentecost.

Acts 1
4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

The verses in question.

John 16:5-16
5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief.7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
16"In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."

Yet, anyone reading the context can see that this is a prediction of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Taken another way, the Paraclete of John cannot be referring to Muhammad for the following reasons:

1. The Paraclete could not be seen by human eyes, but would indwell the disciples at the same time.

John 14
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

This could not possibly be referring to Muhammad because people did see him. Secondly, the Paraclete could dwell within a group of individuals at the same time, making him immaterial and omnipresent. These, being the attributes of divinity, tend to suggest that the Paraclete is God.

2. The Paraclete is the Holy Spirit

John 14:
25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

In orthodox Islamic belief, the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel. This fact would disprove the notion that Muhammad is the Paraclete, since this would make him Gabriel.

3. According to the Holy Scriptures, the Paraclete was to bring glory to Jesus Christ, and yet Muhammad “glorified” Allah. (16:13-15)

John 16
13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

Taking the idea of Muhammad as the Paraclete to its natural conclusion, we may claim then that Jesus Christ is Allah, the God of Muhammad.

The Paraclete did arrive as predicted, not 600 years later but ten days after the ascension of Jesus to heaven as seen in Acts 2:1-36. Snippets below.

Acts 2
3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
35until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." '
36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

EstherRose

Luke 6
40A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher. (NIV)


Here is Luke 6:40 in Hebrew. Please show me where it says "mushlam”?

åáøë úåéäì íìù ãéîìú ìëì éãå åáø ìò äìòð ãéîìú ïéà

EstherRose

Luke 19
10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

In addition to the contradiction in the above verse and sura, the Bible version of Jesus, is not remotely the same as the Koran’s version of Jesus. Since the Bible came first and the Koran specifically states that the Bible is true (see syra below) would you care to explain the discrepancy?


So if you (O Muhammad SAW) are in doubt concerning that which We have revealed unto you, [i.e. that your name is written in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] then ask those who are reading the Book [the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] before you. Verily, the truth has come to you from your Lord. So be not of those who doubt (it). (Yunus 10:94)

EstherRose

Here is a quick summary of the inaccuracy of the Gospel of Barnabus. In all honesty, I condensed this from information I found on a website, the only time I have used a website to help me respond to a thread. This is not the full information from the website. (What can I say, I have limited time and like you've never done it at one time or another. )

The Gospel of Barnabas, a medieval document claiming to be an account of the life of Jesus, displays a distinctly Muslim bias, and purports to show that Jesus was not the Son of God, nor the Messiah. The document is generally regarded by most scholars as a forgery.

History

A Gospel of Barnabas is first mentioned on a list of heretical books dating from the fifth century. No further information is given, and no manuscript survives from that date. The next mention of the Gospel occurs in the fifteenth century. An Italian and Spanish version were located in that time period.

Bias

The Gospel displays a distinctly Muslim bias. Jesus is portrayed as a prophet, who never claimed to be the Messiah, nor the Son of God. This Jesus did not die on the cross, but Judas was crucified in his place. In this Gospel, Jesus predicts the coming of Mohammed, and refers to him by name.

For this reason, many Muslim scholars defend the Gospel as being historical, and often quote from it to support the claims of the Koran against the New Testament.

Arguments against Authenticity

The Gospel of Barnabas displays a number of internal problems and external anachronisms that firmly fix its origin in the fourteenth century, somewhere in Western Europe. These problems can be divided into several categories.

1. Lack of Manuscript Support

Although mentioned in the fifth century, the earliest manuscript copies of the Gospel date from the fifteenth century. In addition, the Gospel is not quoted prior to this time, either by Muslim apologists, nor any of the Church Fathers.

2. Historical and Geographical Problems

The Gospel of Barnabas makes a number of historical and geographical blunders. The Gospel asserts that Jesus was born while Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea. Secular history tells us that Pilate did not become governor until 26 or 27 AD. The Gospel describes Nazareth as a coastal city, when in fact it is located in the hill country, some distance from the Sea of Galilee. Palestine is described as a beautiful, lush country during the Summer. In fact, Palestine has a Winter rainfall, and much of the countryside is barren desert.

The Gospel also makes the putative author, Barnabas, one of Christ's disciples. However, the New Testament records that Barnabas only received his name after Christ's ascension (Acts 4:36).

3. Anachronistic Terms

The Gospel of Barnabas contains a number of anachronistic terms. For example, wine is described as being kept in wine-barrels, although such items were unknown during the first century. In fact, wine was kept in wineskins. A system of coinage of sixty mites to a denarius is asserted for first century Palestine. In fact, no such system was used in Palestine, but a similar system was used in medieval Spain.

The Gospel displays some confusion about the terms 'Christ' and 'Messiah'. Although Jesus, in the Gospel of Barnabas, asserts that he is not the Messiah, he still refers to himself as 'Christ'. The author of the Gospel was obviously unaware that these two words are synonymous.

The Gospel also asserts that the Jewish feast of Jubilee was celebrated every hundred years. In fact, the feast was celebrated every fifty years (Lev 25:11), but was changed to every hundred years by a papal bull in the Fourteenth century.

The Gospel often appears to indicate that feudalism was practiced in First Century Palestine. Vassals and Lords appear in the Gospel, as well as other feudal terms and practices.

4. Anachronistic Sources

A cursory reading of the Gospel of Barnabas reveals a number of quotes from Dante's Inferno. Terms such as 'false and lying gods' and 'raging hunger' appear in the Gospel, and Hell is described as consisting of seven centers. The 'circles of hell' are also referred to.

It has also been shown that the Biblical text quoted in the Gospel follows the text of the Catholic Vulgate, which was translated about 400 AD.

Conclusion

Historical forgeries are difficult to produce, for the simple fact that the author is required to be intimately familiar with his target time-period. It is almost impossible to prevent something of the author's real background from leaking into the document; it is equally difficult to get all the minute details of the remote time-period correct.

The Gospel of Barnabas graphically portrays these problems. The author has allowed something of his background to color the text. For the anonymous author of the Gospel, we find references to fourteenth century medieval Europe in the narrative.

EstherRose

Please see my post above where I briefly discuss the difference between how the Bible portrays the life of Jesus and His mission on this earth and the Koran’s view. Below, I offer more about the differences. As far as the quote above about the end times…The Christian version of Jesus’ return does not have Him performing a Hajj. Explaining all of those differences would derail this thread. However if someone wants to start one.


Differences between the Koran and the Bible.

So if you (O Muhammad SAW) are in doubt concerning that which We have revealed unto you, [i.e. that your name is written in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] then ask those who are reading the Book [the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] before you. Verily, the truth has come to you from your Lord. So be not of those who doubt (it). (Yunus 10:94)

Surely, those who believe (in the Oneness of Allâh, in His Messenger Muhammad SAW and all that was revealed to him from Allâh), those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians, - whosoever believed in Allâh and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (Al-Ma'idah 5:69)

The above suras claim the validity of the Torah and the Bible. The suras below are in direct contradiction to the Bible. And of course there is the huge difference in the koran’s view of Jesus is only a prophet and the Christian belief that Jesus is the Son of God. Whether or not you here on this board believe in the validity of the bible, the Koran attests to its truth, so the contradictions alone render the Koran as fallible and not the “uncreated word of Allah” as muslims claim.

1. Jesus’ crucifixion.

Matthew 27
35When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allâh," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) ]: (An-Nisa 4:157)

This is a big one. The bible states that Jesus was crucified, descended into hell, was resurrected. The Koran claims otherwise. It claims that Jesus was not killed (another had taken his place) and that on a road outside of Jerusalem 3 hours later he was taken into heaven. This is not a small difference.

2. Zechariah silent until birth of his son John the Baptist.

Luke 1
20And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their proper time."

He said: "O my Lord! Make a sign for me." Allâh said: "Your sign is that you shall not speak to mankind for three days except with signals. And remember your Lord much (by praising Him again and again), and glorify (Him) in the afternoon and in the morning." (Aali Imran 3:41)

3. The birth of Jesus.

Luke 2
6While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.

And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a date-palm. She said: "Would that I had died before this, and had been forgotten and out of sight!" (Maryam 19:23)

Not only the difference in where Jesus was born but also in the attitude of Mary. In the bible, she was considered blessed by Jesus. The Koran indicates shame.

4. Who Jesus is.

Hebrews 1
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

The Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary), was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother [Maryam (Mary)] was a Siddiqah [i.e. she believed in the words of Allâh and His Books (see Verse 66:12)]. They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allâh does not eat). Look how We make the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to them, yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth). (Al-Ma'idah 5:75)

The Bible predates the Koran, so any contradictions would either show that the Bible is false, but then the suras which claim the validity of the Bible would negate the validity of the Koran, or the contradictions would show that the Koran was false to begin with. Either way, Koran is false. If the Koran is false, then the Islamic view that Jesus taught Islam is false. Whether or not you here on this board believe in the validity of the bible, the Koran attests to its truth, so the contradictions alone render the Koran as fallible and not the “uncreated” word of Allah as muslims claim.

markfiend

I would argue with this one straight off the bat. The fact that the NT authors have Jesus quoting from the Septuagint (Greek) rather than from the Torah (Hebrew) strongly suggests to me that, like Paul, Jesus' native tongue was Greek.