NOGO

I am not impressed.

Jesus died on a certain day. Why then do Christian celebrate his death and resurrection on a different date each year?
Granted this is not part of the story but is it a coincidence that Jesus died near the passover.

The question is how much of it was made up?
My guess is that not two scholars will agree on this question.

Says who?
Osiris came back to life.
F. Till argues the point in the following link ...
<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2001/6/016pagan.html" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2001/6/016pagan.html</a>

On the subject of resurrection ...
The pharisees believed in it while the sadducees did not. Searching the OT one finds nothing on the subject. The only possible conclusion is that this concept predates Jesus and was borrowed from other cultures.

Son of God ...
This is another concept which is non-exiting in the OT. Yahweh clearly says that there is no one but He and that he is one. Not three in one but one. So again where does this concept of son of God come from? You can put your head in the sand if you want Bede but it appears clear to me that it is a borroowed concept from other cultures.

Your scholar has his head in the sand.

[ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

wildernesse

Bede:

Well, I’m not really interested in arguing whether or not Christianity is derived from pagan backgrounds—but I think that it is clear that most of Christian traditions are not “Christian” per se, but are synchronistic with the pagan rituals and religions of the people who became Christians.

Is Christianity simply a more palatable and easily spread form of some other religion? Or is “real” Christianity unknowable because of the pagan influences? I don’t think so (for the second question) because of my beliefs and experiences—although I think this is an interesting topic to explore. I think that it is telling that your scholar doesn’t talk about Mithras—which is something you could make a more compelling argument for, in my opinion, than corn gods.

A primer for those who haven’t thought about this much before is <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa.htm" target="_blank">religioustolerance.org</a> This site really just lists some parallels to whet the appetite for investigation. I’m sure that most of you have seen and thought of these points before, but for those here who haven’t—here’s a stepping stone. I’m sure that it’s not comprehensive, but still interesting to me.

I do agree with the author that pagan rituals within Christianity or pagan similarities in writing style etc don’t necessarily make Christianity false.

Btw, I don’t think that your article is “plainly written by someone who knows what he’s talking about”. I’d like more primary references and a clearer writing style from someone who knows what he’s talking about.

Peter Kirby: I wasn’t saying we need authorities—just that if you’re going to argue from authority for your evidence, then there should be an authority. My post was simply a comment on that point.

Also, besides The Jesus Puzzle, what books would you all recommend in regards to this topic of pagan influences on Christianity? Thanks (if I should make a new thread about this, please let me know.).

--tibac

Bob K

Herein is a website featuring the Assyrian-Babylonian parallels of the Jesus Myth.: <a href="http://www.bobkwebsite.com/belmythvjesusmyth.html" target="_blank">http://www.bobkwebsite.com/belmythvjesusmyth.html</a>

Herein is a website featuring Egyptian parallels of the Jesus myth and a combination of Egyptian, Assyrian, and Babylonian parallels of the Jesus myth: <a href="http://www.bobkwebsite.com/egyptianmythvjesusmyth.html" target="_blank">http://www.bobkwebsite.com/egyptianmythvjesusmyth.html</a>

Herein is a website featuring Chaldean and Hindu parallels of the Flood Myth:
<a href="http://www.bobkwebsite.com/floodmyths.html" target="_blank">http://www.bobkwebsite.com/floodmyths.html</a>

Aerik Von

THE DEVIL HAS BLINDED THEE!!!

Peter Kirby

Aerik Von, joking or serious, that post was not appropriate in BC&A.

best,
Peter Kirby - moderator

Ted Hoffman

Correct!

Steven Carr

No Justin Martyr clearly denies that Christianity borrowed doctrines from any other religion.

Christianity was *born* borrowing doctrines.

NOGO

Just expanding on my previous post.

As I stated the Son of God concept does not exist in the OT. In fact the OT goes out of its way to make a "Son of God" impossible.
Consider these verses.

Deut 6:4 should in fact read
""Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one!"

Early Christians saw the problem and came up with the trinity to solve it.
This is like squaring the circle. The concept of trinity is like the son of God concept it simply does not exist in the OT. IN fact the trinity does not exist in the NT as well.

Deut 6:4 makes the trinity impossible.

So the question is this how can God fearing, Bible reading, pious Jews come up with the Son of God concept?

Zeus has sons and so did all the Gods in the area.

Maybe Bede can asnwer this one.

Radcliffe Emerson

Quite correct,the son of god concept, as in god in human form, does not exist in the OT. In fact, I read a q&a session a few weeks ago where someone finally (it seems this was never asked before) asked a rabbi why the Jews did not accept Jesus. The answer was simply: the messianic concept of Jesus as recorded in the NT is NOT of Jewish origin!
Jewish messiahs have never been believed to be divine, they're always just humans that have extra wisdom from god.
In fact, I read that all of the OT prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc were messiahs, and the bible records them as dying. Jesus was not introduced from Jewish origin, therefore they don't accept him.
Also, their legend about the messiah that will deliver them has several aspects.
There will actually be two messiahs, not one. One will be spiritual, and one policital, or social.
Neither of them will be divine, merely extraordinary humans.
And lastly, when they come, they will bring peace to the entire world, WHILE THEY ARE HERE.
That clearly did not happen after Jesus allegedly died.
The concept of eternal hell is not Jewish either, but that's another story.

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: Radcliffe Emerson ]

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: Radcliffe Emerson ]

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: Radcliffe Emerson ]</p>

Jayhawker Soule

Though I do not have the book in front of me, I'm aware that Geza Vermes makes the exact oposite argument, i.e.: This would seem fully in keeping with the patriarchical roots of Judaism.