Freethought & Rationalism Archive

DNAunion · 07-31-2002, 05:37 PM

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Michael: I imagine that an organism that died by being flash-frozen would become a corpse with lower entropy than the original living organism.

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DNAunion: Is an organism that is flash-frozen dead? Bacteria and even some insects can be frozen solid for long periods and then revived.

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Scientiae: That bacteria bit was a nice strawman though. If you honestly believe that a flash freeze won't kill most organisms (and by that I mean necrosis as a result of irreversible protein denaturation and destruction of cellular macrostructures), why don't you try it on a part of your body?

DNAunion: Uhm, I didn’t say humans could do that.

Oh, and by luck I found student that had the book I was looking for to support my position.

Quote:

”How do cold-blooded animals – frogs, turtles, beetles, spiders – endure when environmental temperatures fall below the freezing point of their body fluids? Some species avoid freezing, but many others freeze solid during the winter months and thaw in the spring. Some secrets of freeze tolerance are known; more may be unraveled.” (bold added, Melvin Merken, Physical Science with Modern Applications: Fifth Edition, Saunders College Pusblishing, 1993, p151)

DNAunion: The author references the following article in relation to his statements: “Frozen and Alive”, Kenneth Storey and Janet M. Storey, Scientific American, December 1990.

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: DNAunion ]

Undercurrent · 07-31-2002, 05:37 PM

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Originally posted by Starboy:
Which ever of you is arguing that order decreases discontinuously the moment an organism dies I would have to agree.

If by "order" you mean "entropy" then you should be able to crack out your calculator and prove it. I contend that a hamster, by being flash-frozen reduces its entropy. I say this because, during the process being flash frozen, it loses a positive amount of heat at a positive temperature. Therefore the differential element dS = dQ/T is always negative, therefore the change in entropy is negative -- I.e. The entropy has decreased.

I think even DNAUnion will agree that a flash-frozen hamster is good and dead, and unlikely to revive upon thawing.

Therefore, it is possible to change from the living state to the dead state while simultaneously losing entropy.

m.

DNAunion · 07-31-2002, 05:48 PM

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Scientiae: Oh, and you started this thread by responding directly to the challenge of whether creationists could recall the other laws of thermodynamics. You failed, obviously, according to your admission above.

DNAunion: No, I pretty much nailed 3 out of 4. The fourth one (that is, the third law of thermodynamics) is one I explicitly stated at the time I made the post that I didn't recall off the top of my head, though I did come at least somewhat close. So, out of 4 I'd say I got 3 and 1/3. That's a score of about 83%. No all that shabby (and much better than what the challenge implied an "ignorant Creationist" could have done).

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: DNAunion ]

Principia · 07-31-2002, 05:52 PM

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How do cold-blooded animals � frogs, turtles, beetles, spiders � endure when environmental temperatures fall below the freezing point of their body fluids? Some species avoid freezing, but many others freeze solid during the winter months and thaw in the spring.

Go look up what flash freeze means -- it just might be in your collection of textbooks. Now, let's see... do seasonal temperatures change that quickly? I don't think so. But good job hunting down that article. Here's a bone.

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DNAunion: No, I pretty much nailed 3 out of 4. The fourth one (that is, the third law of thermodynamics) is one I explicitly stated at the time I made the post that I didn't recall off the top of my head, though I did come at least somewhat close. So, out of 4 I'd say I got 3 and 1/3. That's a score of about 83%. No all that shabby (and much better than what the challenge implied an "ignorant Creationist" could have done).

<applause>

Good boy. You have risen above that glorious standard of an ignorant Creationist. Here's another bone.

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Scientiae ]

DNAunion · 07-31-2002, 05:55 PM

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Michael: I think even DNAUnion will agree that a flash-frozen hamster is good and dead, and unlikely to revive upon thawing.

DNAunion: Agree, but consider the whole matter of “bizarre” death mechanisms like flash-freezing something largely irrelevant.

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Michael: Therefore, it is possible to change from the living state to the dead state while simultaneously losing entropy.

DNAunion: Well, Scientiae doesn’t agree with you, judging by what he earlier stated in this thread…

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Scientiae: If you honestly believe that a flash freeze won't kill most organisms (and by that I mean necrosis as a result of irreversible protein denaturation and destruction of cellular macrostructures)…

DNAunion: What Scientiae mentioned would be a loss of structure and a decrease in order – i.e., an increase in entropy.

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: DNAunion ]

Devilnaut · 07-31-2002, 05:55 PM

DNAunion, I suggest you stop pissing in Scientiae's cereal every morning...

Starboy · 07-31-2002, 05:56 PM

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Originally posted by tronvillain:
Lentic Catachresis, I am afraid that you are wrong and Supramolecular is right. As a result of its polarity, water is forced to form pseudocrystalline latices around something nonpolar like an oil, and so an increase in entropy drives the seperation. When two oil molecules are brought together, the decrease in the number of water molecules in a pseudocrytalline latice results in a net increase in entropy.

Hi Tronvillian,

Wouldn't the separtion of oil and water be better explained not as more or less entropy but as being in the lowest energy state. To understand entropy in that system I think it would be easier to use statistical mechanics:

S == k ln(w)

where S == entropy, k == Boltzmann constant and w == density of states at energy E.

Since the separated state is the lowest energy state, any mixing will introduce energy and the number of combinations of such states at that energy will be quite large compared to the lowest energy state so entropy will increase.

Starboy

DNAunion · 07-31-2002, 06:06 PM

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DNAunion quoting material: “How do cold-blooded animals – frogs, turtles, beetles, spiders – endure when environmental temperatures fall below the freezing point of their body fluids? Some species avoid freezing, but many others freeze solid during the winter months and thaw in the spring. “

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Scientiae: Go look up what flash freeze means -- it just might be in your collection of textbooks. Now, let's see... do seasonal temperatures change that quickly? I don't think so.

DNAunion: Uhm, where did I say an organism freezing solid in the winter was flash-freezing? Nowhere.

I guess your problem is that you misinterpretted what I said here…

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DNAunion: Is an organism that is flash-frozen dead? Bacteria and even some insects can be frozen solid for long periods and then revived.

DNAunion: If I had meant that being frozen solid was the same as being flash frozen, then I would have confidently proclaimed that Michael was wrong because I had possession of valid material showing that some organisms can thaw back to normal (i.e., they weren't really dead).

But since I didn't make that claim, you should have been able to conclude that I was not equating flash freezing with simply freezing solid.

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: DNAunion ]

Starboy · 07-31-2002, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Michael:


If by "order" you mean "entropy" then you should be able to crack out your calculator and prove it. I contend that a hamster, by being flash-frozen reduces its entropy. I say this because, during the process being flash frozen, it loses a positive amount of heat at a positive temperature. Therefore the differential element dS = dQ/T is always negative, therefore the change in entropy is negative -- I.e. The entropy has decreased.

I think even DNAUnion will agree that a flash-frozen hamster is good and dead, and unlikely to revive upon thawing.

Therefore, it is possible to change from the living state to the dead state while simultaneously losing entropy.

m.

Hi Michael,

I agree a frozen hamster would have lower entropy then a live one. The same thing would be true for a brick. The way I am using order, I think it would be somewhat proportional to the inverse of entropy. So as order increases entropy decreases. A perfect crystalline structure at absolute zero is maximally ordered, but its entropy is defined to be zero. When I say that the transition from living to the dead decreases order what I am trying to say is that such a transition increases entropy. A more basic argument is that at the time of death, the organism stops the process of maintaining its order, and that represents a discontinuous jump in entropy.

Starboy

Principia · 07-31-2002, 06:10 PM

Quote:

But since I didn't make that claim, you should have been able to conclude that I was not equating flash freezing with simply freezing solid.

Sorry, mutt. Not interested in playing, no matter how much you wag that tail.

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07-31-2002, 05:55 PM	#46
Devilnaut Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Posts: 374	DNAunion, I suggest you stop pissing in Scientiae's cereal every morning...

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