Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mark9950 · 07-05-2003, 01:35 AM

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Oh, phooey. "The New Testament is just a reworked Old Testament."

There is nothing in common between the OT and the NT that is why modern day jews in israel do not believe in the savior messiah jesus christ.

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"The Old Testament is just a reworked version of the Code of Hammurabi."

It may be but the code of hammurabi may be the reworked laws of king sargon of akkad.

Are you saying hammurabi was/is God?

Normal · 07-06-2003, 12:37 AM

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Originally posted by ex-xian
Normal-Could you please explain how the immaterial parts of the universe and the material parts are of the same substance? Also, what is the "immaterial" part? What is it's purpose, function, and how does it interact with the material?

The immaterial parts arn't made of "substance", they are the "divine nature" of the "substance".

Hawkingfan · 07-07-2003, 09:44 AM

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Originally posted by Citrusponge
I'm an atheist, but the answer I would expect from Christians is that the Bible is sufficient evidence, as it's the word of God etc.

True, Christians say that. But it makes no sense. And what about the Koran? The Koran is supposed to be "evidence" for Allah. They cannot both be right.

Hawkingfan · 07-07-2003, 09:53 AM

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Originally posted by fides
- There are two kinds of Truth: Truth known through the light of reason known as Rational Truth, and Truth known through the light of revelation known as Revealed Truth. Revealed Truth is beyond reason. These two can never be in conflict, as all Truth comes from God, who is Truth itself. Aquinas and others argue this for Christianity, Ibn Rusdh and others argue this for Islam.

Well, these are unproved assertions. However, you can disprove certain statements in the bible about reality that are supposed to be "truthful", but are incorrect. For instance, the scientifically incorrect statement that a rabbit chews its cud.

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- the only thing that Christianity and Islam really differ on is the subject of Revealed Truth. These are truths held by faith, usually by the argument of authority only. This covers things like the Trinitarian Monotheistic God or the Quran as the literal co-eternal word of God.[/B]

I disagree. I big disagreement that the two religions have is the belief that Jesus Christ is or is not the son of god.

07-07-2003, 09:55 AM

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Originally posted by Hawkingfan
True, Christians say that. But it makes no sense. And what about the Koran? The Koran is supposed to be "evidence" for Allah. They cannot both be right.

IMO, A book in and of itself cannot be evidence of anything, except maybe the existence of paper and ink.

Given that Muslims believe that the Bible is a corrupted (by humans) version of the word of God=Allah, why can't they both be right? (Apart from the fact that the mere existence of a book proves nothing.)

Hawkingfan · 07-07-2003, 10:06 AM

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Originally posted by stretch
I wouldn't go so far as to say that the existence of God can be proved by reason.

The existence of God can't be disproved by reason.

Anyway, Allah is just the Arabic word for God. Arabic-speaking Christians call God Allah. Monotheists argue over the characteristics of God, they don't believe in different Gods.

Then simply exchange Allah for some other god. Like Zeus. Since you cannot prove the existence of Yahweh and Allah (considered one), then why are you so sure in its existence? Because they can't be disproven? You must believe in invisible leprauchans too?How are you so sure that Zeus isn't the one true god? How are you so sure there is only one god and not a league of gods?

07-07-2003, 10:19 AM

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Originally posted by Hawkingfan
Then simply exchange Allah for some other god. Like Zeus. Since you cannot prove the existence of Yahweh and Allah (considered one), then why are you so sure in its existence? Because they can't be disproven? You must believe in invisible leprauchans too?How are you so sure that Zeus isn't the one true god? How are you so sure there is only one god and not a league of gods?

My Greek mythology is a bit rusty ... but wasn't Zeus one of many gods? Although there can be many gods in a polytheistic worldview, there can't be 'competing' gods in a monotheistic worldview. No polytheistic god could be infinite.

Why I believe probably isn't suited to a philosophical discussion ... as it has to do with subjective perceptions ....

Maybe I do believe in invisible leprachauns

Hawkingfan · 07-07-2003, 10:24 AM

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Originally posted by EstherRose
I can tell you why I believe. As a science minded person, I see God�s hand in every aspect of it.

I am a science-minded person too, but I see absolutely no evidence of God's "hand" in anything. Please explain.

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No matter what I see of nature and the physical world, I see God.[/B]

You claim to see God. But what exactly are you "seeing"? Describe the physical evidence showing God's "hand". Otherwise, you are making an unproved assertion. There is just as much "evidence" for an invisible pink unicorn's "hoof" in science as their is for god's "hand".

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I was not always a Christian, but I always believed in God.[/B]

So can't you see why your reasoning is biased? I was a Christian for over 20 years, but it wasn't until I began learning about how the world really works with an open mind that I realized that the belief in a god is unreasonable.

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I have the proof of the Holy Spirit.[/B]

And that proof would be...? I could say that I have the same exact proof for the existence of Thor.

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When I accepted Jesus, the Spirit sealed me in His redemption in eternity.[/B]

Another unproved assertion. You have not proven anything of the sort. I can claim that once I accepted Thor, that he sealed me in his redemtion in eternity. Would you believe me? No. It's nothing but hot air.

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The Spirit is not some vague indefinable thing.[/B]

And neither is Thor...but go on...

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The Spirit is a real presence working in me (and other Christians) to change us.[/B]

Again, another unproved assertion that can be said of any given deity.

The rest of your post should be taken to BC.

Wyz_sub10 · 07-07-2003, 11:20 AM

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Originally posted by Billy Graham is cool
66 books/40 authors/hundreds of years/multiple cultures/multiple locations etc. one recognizable literary voice

You've got to be kidding about this. I don't even know members of the clergy who would say that the bible reflects one recognizable literary voice.

As noted, this is a topic for Biblical Criticism, but there are many problems with the biblical accounts and existence evidence. The OT talks about cities that didn't exist then, animals that were not yet around, cultures that did not yet develop, etc.

Hawkingfan · 07-07-2003, 01:03 PM

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Originally posted by Billy Graham is cool
The Bible

66 books/40 authors/hundreds of years/multiple cultures/multiple locations etc. one recognizable literary voice

As already pointed out, the bible is full of contradictions. It also has a varied literary voice.

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-Fulfilled prophecy[/B]

There are also unfulfilled prophecies. And Christianity/Judaism is not alone in claiming "proven" fulfilled prophecies.

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-Israel's/Jewish culture's surviving and thriving in world quite hostile[/B]

That culture is not unique in that fact. Means nothing.

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-Confirmatory archaeology[/B]

Not unique.

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-Unlike any other holy book, apart from any mythology[/B]

As already mentioned, this is false. It is based on other religions and myths.

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-The life and claims of Christ[/B]

...are not verified by any reliable source outside of the bible. And what about the life and claims of Mohammed? What about the life and claims of David Koresh?

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-The resurrection[/B]

...was not eye-witnessed by a single person. An empty tomb was seen and it was concluded that a resurrection took place.

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The Q'uran denies Christ's deity, resurrection etc. Christianity is mutually exclusive from every other religion--this is not true for others per se. If Christianity is true, all others are false. The case for Christ is very strong.[/B]

Off topic. And the case against an actual historical Jesus is even stronger.

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See above. Also, God is not Allah unless he is schizophrenic. Another mutally exclusive issue is the character of God in the Bible and that of Allah as portrayed in the Q'uran/Hadith/Shariah etc.[/B]

And this does nothing to prove the existence of Allah over God.

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If there was not quality and quantity of evidence I'd be an atheist.[/B]

You still have yet to site any of this evidence.

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