Jamie_L

Hogwash! What's so damned ordered about it? The chaotic nature of wheather? The statistical behavior of quantum phenomena? The dual wave-particale nature of matter and energy? The fact that what we observe about motion and space is generally incorrect? The fact that the real truth about the way the universe works (quantum physics, curved space-time, etc.) contradicts nearly all human experience and common sense, and furthermore makes my brain hurt?

Awe-inspiring? Perhaps. Beautiful? Sometimes. Maybe. Depending on who you ask and when you ask them. Ordered? My primate ass!

Jamie

Jamie_L

As mentioned, what we consider beautiful is largely cultural. We have a "sense of beauty" that tells us when things are pleasing. We've evolved to know the difference between what pleases us and what does not because, generally, we're programmed to find things pleasing that are good for us, and find things displeasing when they are bad for us.

Streams. Fresh air. Nice weather. Green pastures. These are things that are generally good for our survival.

Furthermore, our brain didn't just evolve all at once. Different features and different functions came along at different times. It's quite easy to imagine some features, which independently provide a survival advantage, interact in ways that produce additional consequences which are neither good nor bad from a survival perspective.

We develop a sense of "beauty" of more simply "pleasing sensory input". This helps us easily steer clear of bad things and stick to good stuff. We also develop cognitive thought - giving us all sorts of benefits. The two combine to create the possibility for considering a much wider range of experiences "beautiful". Why does this necessarily indicate some independint, divine-inspired "sense of beauty"?

Jamie

Tristan Scott

Jamie_L- Precisely. Just because you cannot fathom the order in such things does not mean that it does not exist.

ex-preacher

How can anyone look at the awesome way that leukemia spreads through the body of a young child and not believe in God? Or the incredible way that the Black Plague spread through Europe with the help of insects and rats? Can you not see the design?

Consider the amazing sequence of events which perpetuated hookworm in most of the Southern population. The larvae hatches in the feces of humans. When people step on infected ground, the baby hookhorm latches on to the foot and actually enters the bloodstream. It travels throughout the body wreaking havoc and spreads new larvae in that person's feces so that the beautiful cycle can begin anew. Could this possibly be chance? No way!

I have not even touched on the marvels of malaria, typhoid, tuberculosis, AIDS, cholera, lead poisoning, poison mushrooms, meningitis, Alzheimer's, breast cancer, schizophrenia, heart disease, Lou Gehrig's disease, multiple sclerosis, muscular dystrophy, Down's Syndrome, cancer of the lip, prostate cancer, lung cancer, skin cancer, boils, acne, impetigo, basal cell carcinoma, malignant melanoma, varicose veins, dandruff, psoriasis, strokes, anuerisms, pyloric stenosis (my son had this), encephalitis, polio (what a wonder of God until man in his hubris eliminated it!), leprosy (ah, the good ol days), osteoporis, Parkinson's disease, epilepsy (or as we like to call it, "demon possession"), dementia, clinical depression (evil spirits), psychopathy, alcoholism, nearsightedness (again man plays God with glasses, contacts and surgery), glaucoma, cataracts, conjunctivitis, lice, ticks, Lyme disease, macular degeneration, deafness, influenza, the common cold, asthma, allergies, nasal polyps, tonsilitis, appendicitus, laryngitis, bronchitis, pneumonia, emphysema, pleurisy, lung absess, interstitial fibrosis, cystic fibrosis, atherosclerosis, angina, heart failure, high blood pressure, cardiac arrest, rheumatic fever, measles, mumps, rubella (blasted vaccines!), thrombosis, gangrene, sickle cell anemia, hemophilia, lymphoma, Hodgkin's disease, tooth decay, periodontitis, trench mouth, cancer of the esophogus, amebic dystentery, stomach ulcer, diarrhea, cancer of the stomach, duodenal ulcer, peritonisis, Crohn's disease, diverticulitis, cancer of the intenstine, kidney stones, bladder cancer, hemorrhoids, anal fissure (ouch!), hepatitis A, B, C, cirrhosis, acute pancreatitis, kidney failure, diabetes, gigantism, dwarfism. hypoglecemia, hyperthyroidism, Paget's disease (God's preferred method for slowly killing my Godfearing grandfather), arthritis, tetanus, shingles (afflicts my godly grandma-in-law), rabies, smallpox (killed Native Americans by the millions, Praise God!), yellow fever (killed my great-great grandfather at the age of 23), trichinosis, malaria (did I mention that already?), tapeworm, testicular cancer, syphillis, impotence (hello Viagra), periods (what's up with that?), menopause, ovarian cysts, endometriosis (afflicts my church-going sister), vaginal yeast infections, cancer of the vulva, infertility, herpes, ectopic preganancy, miscarriage (God's abortion - but it's good when he does it), SIDS, autism, spina bifida, hydrocephalus, congenital heart disorders, intestinal atresia, imperforate anus, cleft palate, club foot, ringworm, cerebral palsy, Reye's syndrome, mental retardation, undescended testicles, whooping couph, scarlet fever, pinworms, diptheria, scoliosis, incontinence.

Ah, truly marvelous and wonderful is our Creator!

Some other time we can remind ourselves of the some of the wonderful plants and animals which bless us.

[edited because I left out some of God's greatest diseases]

[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: ex-preacher ]</p>

WJ

Jamie!

The reason physicist claim the world is rational is because it is ordered thru the mathematical laws of nature/physics. Of course we know there are axiomatic gaps in the laws themselves, if that is where you're going with this. And if it is, I agree, the world is just as irrational as you and I (aka, the people in it.) Agree? And if that has any truth to it, further, why can't we be perfectly rational all the time?

Then, you said:
"Why does this necessarily indicate some independint, divine-inspired "sense of beauty"?

Well, to use your words, it does follow from induction or "indicate" that because there are little biological advantages or survival value associated with asthetic beauty, that there is another purpose. For instance, what is the purpose of love? Lower species can survive without those elements/levels of consciousness and sentience, presumably. Right? Or again, the ability to perform math equasions confers no biological advantage from the natural ability to dodge falling objects in the jungle?

I quess I'm a bit baffled when you come across so strong in your asertions about that which all you did was describe existing human phenomenon or sociology or behaviour or psychology... as you really haven't explained *why* a culture decides to adopt these values to begin with?

What's your point to the purpose of these things?

Hogwash?

Edit: all you've suggested are the *how's*.

Walrus

[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: WJ ]</p>

hezekiah jones

Heh. It's instructive that the "intelligent design theorists" are seeking evidence of god's masterful design in the flagellum of the e coli bacteria, the organelle that enables e. coli to cause its host organism to shit copiously through the eye of a needle.

Veil of Fire

All Things Dull and Ugly


All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.

Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings,
He made their brutish venom.
He made their horrid wings.

All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The Lord God made them all.

Each nasty little hornet,
Each beastly little squid--
Who made the spikey urchin?
Who made the sharks? He did!

All things scabbed and ulcerous,
All pox both great and small,
Putrid, foul and gangrenous,
The Lord God made them all.

Amen.

[credit Monty Python]

[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: Veil of Fire ]</p>

Peregrine

Of course this is from a person who would have no problem with the destruction of the ANWR for a few drops of oil and believes that global warming is science fiction.

Jamie_L

Sorry for the strength of my posts. For some reason this arguement always gets under my skin. Usually because it's really translates into "I've never thought about why I believe in God, but it must be so." Anyway, on to specific responses:

We have described "laws" that attempt to state how the universe works. But why should we consider these laws "ordered" or "rational". Compared to what? What other option would there be? It's all we know. How can we make an objective judgement about them? Order and disorder are terms that both get used to describe things which follow the laws of the universe. It seems to me these laws are outside our sense of order.

I disagree with both parts of this statement. The fact that some trait offers no survival advantage does not indicate that it has some other purpose. It just indicates that it has no survival advantage. What survival advantage do male nipples offer? Or an appendix that can rupture and kill you?

Secondly, a sense of beauty can be argued to be a survival trait. Or an outgrowth of other survival traits. I think I spelled this out in my previous post.

We are a rare species. We have the cognitive gifts to convince ourselves to do things that are counterproductive to survival. Emotions provide strong drives to do things that are beneficial: like mate, raise kids, support our tribe, etc., etc.

Lower species can survie without eyes, lungs, hands, feet, you name it. Does that mean they aren't advantageous to survival?

The ability to perform math equations enables engineering, which has enabled mankind to conquer all environs, enhance food production, advance the state of medicine, etc., etc. This does not confer an advantage? We aren't the kings of nearly every environment on the planet?

Just because I have no explanation does not mean that the only other explanation is "God did it."

My point is these things don't have to have a purpose. Furthermore, they may have a purpose that you have not discerned. In my previous post, though, I did offer an explanation as to how a general sense of beauty could have come about through natural selection. Let me rephrase:

1) Species that seek out things which help them ("good things") and avoid things that harm ("bad things") them will do better than those that don't.

2) A pleasurable sense related to "good things" encourages a species to act according to number 1. This is a survival advantage.

3) A cognitive species can develop tools, solve complex problems, and generally dominate its environment. This is a survival advantage.

4) A cognitive species has the ability of abstract thought, and can place value on things besides basic survival needs. Such value can evolve from experiences of the individual or community. If the species also has the sense described in number 2, they will feel pleasure when they encounter these valued things. This is a sense of beauty.

God need not apply.

Jamie

[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: Jamie_L ]

[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: Jamie_L ]</p>

free12thinker

He's a character all right. And his popularity is scary indeed. Him and Dr. Laura are further proof that people can't live without moral tutelage, even well into their adulthood.