Angrillori

But, what it does mean is that God considered this an appropriate method for people to determine Baal doesn't exist and to worship yhwh instead. God made a ruler, a measuring stick to apply to god-claims.

It means that at one point in time God decided it was appropriate to justify his existance to the masses who didn't believe by a miracle. What changed?

It means that any blather about how god doesn't need, or shouldn't 'prove' himself to those who don't believe clearly ISN'T what god himself believed.

It means that if I go into my backyard, and God doesn't burn a cow on my grill, I should assume he is either: deep in thought, busy, traveling, asleep, or not real.

That IS what it means. God set a standard, and by that standard, his standard, he is no more worthy of praise than Baal.

But anytime you wanna try god's biblically approved test for his existance in my backyard, let me know.
If he's better than Baal, I'll worship him, or you can slaughter me. Whatever floats your boat.

7thangel

Actually, there is a process to salvation, called sanctification. This involves the mystery of being under the law first before recieving faith.

The goal of sanctification is for us to have a renewed mind after the likeness of God's wisdom. We are born without wisdom, and wisdom comes to us through a process. I fully understand that I myself cannot increase or decrease my own wisdom. Wisdom is really a gift of God. Our santification is a work of God itself.

BioBeing

If we are all ignorant, then surely we will never understand anyway? Isn't it your job to come here and explain it all to us (oh theist on an atheist board)? If so, please carry on. Explain God to me. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to convert me.

Keith Russell

Bio, but hasn't 7th already stated that you must believe first before 'God' will show you the justification for your belief?

It's the same ol' Just 'have faith' and then 'God' will prove 'Himself' to you argument all over again.

Keith.

fishbulb

What use is the Bible then? You seem to be suggesting that the purpose of the Bible is to discourage non-Christians from becoming Christian. While it does have thie effect, I can't help but wonder why you think that this was its intended purpose.

It will be impossible to acknowledge that God even exists without sufficient evidence. Kind of a catch-22, don't you think?

You really make it sound as though the message of Christianity is this: if you need evidence, you can't have it. If you don't want it--because you are already convinced--you will be given it in abundance. To an adult with a critical mind and stable emotional health, you certainly don't make it seem that Christianity offers very much.

7thangel

If you will convince me that you do not have a "mind" would be strange, because how would I converse with you except believing you also have a mind. My understanding is that the mind itself exist as a force in our brain, like gravity exist in a celestial body. And that our exchanges of thoughts are products of our minds. We have ways to measure one's mind, but not quantitively but qualitatively. So the mind has a physical existence; I can experience it from you and myself.

If you want an evidence of God, the bible itself spoke of prophecies being fulfilled as works of God. Not all were given very convincing evidences of God. When Christ was resurrected, only few were witnesses. Some believed, and some did not. In fact, through creation itself, it convinces us of God. Some believed, and most do not.

Hawkingfan

Because I have a brain.
No. Thoughts are products of the brain.
The mind does not have a physical existence. The brain does.
Heresay and anecdotes are evidence?
Wrong. Not one single person witnessed the resurrection. People witnessed an empty tomb and concluded a resurrection. That is weak evidence of a resurrection.

Angrillori

Hoo boy. Here we go then. We've moved directly from "God doesn't and won't give evidence of his existance," to "God IS giving us proof of his existence." It's funny how we skip from "God doesn't have to give us evidence of his creation," to "God wants an intellectual choice to believe," to "nononono God IS giving you proof." all in a few hours.

But we'll assume you really mean it this time 7th, that god really did want to give us proof of his existance, and in fact did so. Then:

If god wants fulfilled prophecy to be his proof, what prophecies has he fulfilled? (Which I think was a question earlier.)

And, apparently according to 7th, God wants his creation to be proof that he exists. But then why is everything he ostensibly created explainable by naturalistic phenomena? Why isn't there anything at all that points to a creator, if in fact this god wanted his creation to point to him?

If I make a sign to direct people to my house, would I put some directions or maybe even an arrow on it? (So now you'll say I can't know the mind of god. But I'm not trying to, I'm simply pointing out that if you are correct, and God wanted this creation to point to him, he failed.)

7thangel

And you do not have a mind?

I don't mind, if you dont mind

Yes, I do agree. Like the way gravity is.

If you would like to accept that as evidence, so be it.

7thangel

Well, I'm only human.