scigirl

I agree.

YES!! Thank you for explaining it better - that's exactly what I was trying to say.

Once again, agreed.

scigirl

scigirl

Not if you also buy into the Answers in Genesis theory that Adam and Eve were free from disease. If they were truly and completely free from all diseases, than there were certainly actions that they could do without consequences (ingest 30000 mg of cholesterol a day for 40 years with no cardiovascular disease) but these same actions DO cause disease today.

Or - since all animals were allegedly vegetarian, they could go hiking alone at night and not worry about getting eaten by a tiger. And so on.

My point is - Adam and Eve could do more things than we can because they didn't have some of the consequences.

Today, no matter what the Christian Right wants us to believe, a great many of our laws, and our ethics, are based on the fact that the actions are not wrong in and of themselves, but because of the consequences of those actions. We are fined if we leave food out in Yellowstone park. Not because leaving food out is inherently wrong, but because it brings bears into camp. We are told not to eat too much cholesterol and saturated fat, because they can cause atherosclerosis. We are supposed to obey traffic laws in order to prevent harm and accidents.

Adam and Eve had very few consequences shown to them BECAUSE they lived in Eden, and not South Central LA. They never saw anyone die or get hurt, they never heard of a place called "hell," it isn't even clear if they ever saw a lightning storm! My interpretation of their experience is that they were living a very sheltered life and never saw anything even remotely bad or offensive. You pointed out that they stil had the human ability to lie. That is interesting, but it still doesn't sway my argument. Children at a very young age learn how to lie. However, the courts do not use this sole fact when determining whether they are competent to stand trial as adults. They have to fully appreciate the consequences of their actions, and also be able to descriminate right from wrong. Adam and Eve had very little chances to even learn these skills - there wasn't much "wrong" they could do, in their paradise. Except of course for the one fatal mistake of eating a fruit.

Here's another question. Adam and Eve could lie, correct? They could do this before the "fall." So - lying must be an inherent trait of human nature, OR it was learned behavior. Which one is it? If it's inherent to human nature, than God purposely made us to lie. If it's learned behaviour, than they had to learn it from God cuz he was the only one around.

Side note - did anyone ever consider the possibility that Adam and Eve were not disobeying god, but simply trying to follow the food guide pyramid? If God was going to illustrate his power using a food, you'd think he would have banned a less healthy food, like say, red meat? But no, he banned a very healthy and nutritious source of vitamins, minerals, and phytochemicals! Yet another reason the Creation story is retarted. I should start compiling a list. Anyway I digress....

scigirl

scigirl

Ok one more thing...

No that is not at all what I am trying to say, although I could see how it would be easy to mis-interpret what my theory is. I'll try again:

1) Different actions lead to different consequences.
2) Humans have more control of the actions than the consequences. Hence - free will.
3) Free will is meaningless if all the actions lead to the same consequence.
4) Adam and Eve had much less consequences than modern humans, thus they did not have as much free will.

That sucks.

scigirl

Evangelion

scigirl -

No, I didn't say this at all. I said this:

• I suggest to you that the presence of animals and plants provides ample opportunity for Adam and Eve to witness death in a variety of forms. So yes, they would have been familiar with the concept.

For example, if Adam and Eve had picked a flower, it would have died in a couple of days.

Hence the witness of death in a variety of forms.

Yep. I never claimed otherwise. But so what?

I believe that disease had not yet arisen during the period before the Fall. But I believe that they could have brought it upon themselves by lax hygeine practices, for example. So the potential was obviously there.

No, that's a non sequitur.

Oh, really? Seems to me that you can't have read the Bible, then.

Their ignorance of psychology has no bearing on their comprehension of human nature.

Oh, but they were. They understood perfectly well that human beings are inherently selfish, with a predisposition towards sin - and they understood the source of these tendencies.

This they state in language to clear to be ignored:

• Jeremiah 17:9.
  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
  
• Matthew 15:18 -20.
  But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the eart; and they defile the man.
  For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
  These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
  
• James 1:14-15.
  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death

That's human nature, plain and simple.



__________________
People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use.
Søren Kierkegaard

Evangelion

BTW, I took my gas hot water system apart and managed to fix it up.

So now it's working again.



__________________
People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use.
Søren Kierkegaard

wordsmyth

Wasn't the Garden of Eden considered paradise? Isn't it considered the epitome of paradise? Basically a perfect utopia where Adam and Eve could live in eternal bliss? (ignorance?)

I'm not aware of any reference in Genesis before the fall that implies Adam and Eve may have witnessed death... even from a flower they may have picked. I've always viewed it as one of the primary contrasts between living in the Garden of Eden and being banished from it.

If Adam and Eve could contract disease, witness death, etc. then the Garden of Eden would not seem the eternal paradise the bible implies.