Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Non-praying Mantis · 04-11-2003, 07:35 AM

shome42,

Perhaps you can "convince yourself" that you are a Christian but I see several potential problems with this:

1) How about your future girlfriend/wife? You mentioned that your were interested in putting up the facade of Christianity in order to increase your potential pool of possible mates. Well here I see a few problems. If you lie about your feelings on Christianity, don't you think that your S.O. will find out sometime? When she does, do you think that she will be able to trust you anymore? Also, when she does, do you think that she might attempt to convert you to Christianty, for real? Or, maybe she might wonder why you are an atheist with a Christian facade, and why did you lie to everybody, including her?

2) Children. Let's assume that you do succeed in finding a S.O. and you decide to get married and have children. What will you teach them? What will you tell them what you think about Christianity: lies or the truth. Can you really deceive your children that way? Also, if you decide to tell them the truth, then most certainly your S.O. might find out and you will have Vicar Philip's - "strumming for Jesus" situation on your hands. Can you really accept yourself lying to them? Do you want your children to grow up and not question Christianity at all?

Just some potential problems...

NPM

shome42 · 04-11-2003, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenM
shome42,

I'm confused: are you saying that in order to make your life easier more pleasant, a) you're going to 'pretend to be a Christian' (and so you'd say you believed in God but it wouldn't be true) or b) you're going to convince yourself God exists (so you'd say you believe it and that really would be true of you)?

Yes, exactly, those are the two options I see myself as having, aside from the obvious choice of just staying an atheist.

Buddrow_Wilson · 04-11-2003, 09:24 AM

If you took the search for a mate out of the equation, what then? Would you still be tempted to fake christianity?

My last two serious relationships were with a "weak deist" and a firm atheist like myself. Neither of them began with a discussion about beliefs or religion. I honestly don't think being a chrisitian will have the women beating down your door.

Your attitude is concerns me. There is probably other reasons why you are having trouble finding someone.

shome42 · 04-11-2003, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi
You had initially stated you would lie to yourself and to others in order to fit in; that you would even go so far as to convince yourself that it actually was true ("Once you get to that point, all it takes is some meditation and determination to completely believe your own B.S."), which you then capitulated on by saying, "I think the real issue is whether you should come out or pretend to be Christian."

Thus, both courage and integrity are issues here. I'm not morallizing, I'm just pointing it out, which is why I asked, "Why not just remain silent on the issue...?"

Then you agree with me. You would choose to remain silent.

Then you disagree with yourself in your above analogy.

Let me see if I can clarify your analogy. This is what you should have asked for it to be analogous, "If I find myself at a Republican convention, and I happen to think Bush is the biggest moron to ever live, but I pretend to support him and say that I support him, does that mean I lack courage and integrity?"

See? The answer is, IMO, yes, by the way.

True, but that's a different issue all together. It wouldn't be a "big deal" to anyone around you if you were perpetrating a deliberate fraud just to "not stir up the waters," so long as they never know or find out, of course. You would be the one living the lie in order to fit in.

But it does mean that you lack both the courage and integrity to be yourself; that you'd be lying to the very people you wish would accept you into their reindeer games. Again, I'm not morallizing; just pointing out the facts.

If you think pretending to join a cult is more important than your personal integrity, than by all means, have fun.

Damn, Koyaanisqatsi, discussing emotions and life with you is like formally debating evolution. You seem to be a very logical person. It's slightly annoying in the context of this conversation, but thanks, you'll probably help me get a higher LSAT score.

About the analogy, I agree with you, it was flawed. Here's my retake.

You find yourself at a Republican convention. You are a Communist. You keep silent as to not stir up the waters. If some guy walks up to you and says, "Hey, it's great Bush is president, eh?" You say, "Ya man, it's great." Then change the subject.

I see nothing wrong with staying silent OR fibbing.

To continue the analogy, the world is one big Republican convention that you find yourself in, and you are the Communist. 95% of the time, it's just a social situation with political undertones and it's not worth it to create problems by expressing your unpopular beliefs.

OTOH, if your specific purpose for being somewhere is to discuss politics, then by all means, be honest and state your opinions. If someone ever tries to force their beliefs on you, then, of couse, come out and state your true beliefs. In those situations staying silent or lying is the loss of personal integrity.

But I belive those serious circumstances rarely come up. Most of the time you're just surrounded by family and coworkers and it's mostly social. When religion comes up, it's the equivalent of the guy going, "Hey man, it's great the Bush is pres, eh?"

Please note: The Republican/Communist analogy is only meant to convey popular opinion regarding personal beliefs. The specific ideologies of Rupublicans and Communists aren't analogous to Christianity/Atheism at all.

shome42 · 04-11-2003, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Buddrow_Wilson
If you took the search for a mate out of the equation, what then? Would you still be tempted to fake christianity?

My last two serious relationships were with a "weak deist" and a firm atheist like myself. Neither of them began with a discussion about beliefs or religion. I honestly don't think being a chrisitian will have the women beating down your door.

Your attitude is concerns me. There is probably other reasons why you are having trouble finding someone.

I don't have a problem getting girls. That's not the issue. This isn't about changing myself as a cheap ploy to get laid.

I'm 21 and I casually date. At this time in my life religion isn't a big deal dating-wise. In fact, it rarely comes up. However, that's probably because I keep my relationships so casual and I'm living, for the moment, in an extremely liberal city.

But I do worry about it becoming an issue in the future when I'm more serious about finding a wife. I would be very hesitant to marry a theist; I can only assume a theist would feel that same about marrying me.

If the finding a wife thing were removed, then I would feel much better about being an atheist. It's my main concern. My family isn't a big deal nor are coworkers.

I suppose feigning Xianity sounds pretty extreme to most atheists. I don't know if it's just me or the Catholicism in which I was raised. As I've said before, Xianity wasn't really a part of my daily life-- it was something I did on sundays. I even went to Catholic school my entire life, yet on a day to day basis, there wasn't really anything Catholic about it besides theology class, which no one took seriously.

IMHO, Catholicism is mostly about tradition. It's not all hardcore like certain kinds of protestantism.

As an example, when I was in Catholic high school, a good friend of mine transferred to a Baptist school. We were both astounded that the kids were Christian outside of the classroom. We'd never seen anyone "witness" or talk about God oustide of the classroom. We'd especially never seen kids make social situations of religion. We were breathtaken that the kids actually refused alcohol and sex like they were supposed to, as opposed to drinking and having sex then going to confession twice a year.

That type of lax Xianity is why it's tempting just to fake it. It really doesn't affect your day to day life.

Buddrow_Wilson · 04-11-2003, 12:31 PM

Ok, I don't understand then. Why not just let a relationship happen with someone you are dating. If problems arise you move on to someone else. Eventually you would find someone compatible with who you really are. I'm still scratching my head over your motives.

shome42 · 04-12-2003, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Buddrow_Wilson
Ok, I don't understand then. Why not just let a relationship happen with someone you are dating. If problems arise you move on to someone else. Eventually you would find someone compatible with who you really are. I'm still scratching my head over your motives.

I don't understand what's so confusing. It's simple:

9 out of 10 women are going to be theists. Most theists won't marry an atheist and vice versa. Therefore, finding a wife will be much harder by being an atheist.

LLaurieG · 04-12-2003, 01:13 PM

(Laurie) To paraphrase this idea of yours, Shome: "I'm thinking about deluding myself to be a believer, because most people in this country are Christian believers. That way I'll fit in better, and PS: I'm worried about reducing my potential pool of mates if I 'come out' as the atheist I really am. So I'm considering making use of a peculiar ability I have for self-deception to POSE as a believer when in believer company."

It's been a long thread, you're confused on some terms, and you've contradicted yourself a couple times, as Koyaanisqatsi has noted. But cutting through all that, I think your main concerns come through. #1: You think it's easier being a member of the cultural majority. You're right about that: it generally is. But the simple fact is, you don't happen to BE a member of this majority. #2: You're concerned about limiting your pool of potential mates if you openly identify yourself as an atheist. You think it's more prudent - in fact that's the main thrust of your initial post - to lay low, blend in, pretend to go along.

This is why I identify you as a pragmatist. You propose doing that which is expedient in order to maximize your chance of happiness. This is a fairly intelligent way to operate. But the tightrope you still need to walk as a pragmatist is the same one of principle, of courage and integrity that Koyaanisquatsi mentioned. This is especially important with regard to attracting the person you hope to love for life. Because unless you live your own life honestly, conduct yourself with integrity, you cannot expect to attract others who behave the same way. If you equivocate, or are deliberately DISHONEST about who you are and what you [don't] believe, you do not deserve a quality courageous, honest woman of integrity as your mate.

It doesn't have to be the first thing to come up in a conversation with an attractive potential date - and it usually isn't - but when the topic of religion does eventually come up, I strongly suggest you take a deep, courageous breath and reply that "you have a hard time with some of the concepts that Christians are expected or required to believe." Tell her you think that babies are born innocent... that you really don't believe that all humans are born inherently evil and deficient (the CORE belief of Christianity). This will immediately warm the cockles of almost any woman's heart. If she seems receptive, lightly say you think it's almost abusive to make children believe this... you think that's wrong; it just feels wrong to you.

Get the idea? Do it lightly - do not push. Gauge her reaction. Pretty soon you can introduce the next Christian concept you "have a hard time" believing: that people of other religions, no matter how good and kind they are, under Christianity are condemned to burn in Hell because they do not 'accepted Jesus.' That this strikes you, personally, as both unfair and wrong. You do not feel - personally - very kindly disposed toward a god who would make such a rule. Making "I" statements is always the best approach with delicate topics.

In other words, gently but firmly be yourself - an atheist. You are one of the enlightened, not one of the brainwashed. Be proud of what you are: someone who has passed through the religious stage and come out the other side. You are open-minded, tolerant, a decent, kindly, compassionate person - one reluctant to have narrowminded, exclusionary, "only WE are right" mentality people around you.

You want to attract a quality mate? THAT'S how.

LLaurieG · 04-12-2003, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Shome42: I don't understand what's so confusing. It's simple: 9 out of 10 women are going to be theists. Most theists won't marry an atheist and vice versa. Therefore, finding a wife will be much harder by being an atheist.

(Laurie) This is an over-simplification. You used to be a theist yourself. She might be one now, but as you yourself are proof, people change. Another mistaken assumption: most theists won't marry atheists and vice versa. In fact plenty of theists are married to partners they know don't "believe." They work it out; they work around it. As you again know from your Catholic background, there are lots of "theists" out there warming pews who don't take the whole God, Heaven & Hell thing literally or even seriously.

lpetrich · 04-13-2003, 02:06 AM

Somehow, this thread reminds me of this incident that the late Dr. Isaac Asimov had described.

One time, he wanted to meet with some acquaintance for dinner somewhere, and he chose a date that happened to be the evening that begins Yom Kippur, the Jewish Day of Repentance. When his acquaintance protested that he will be at his devotions on that day, the two chose the evening right after.

So when they showed up on that day, Dr. A's acquaintance denounced him for being a bad Jew who did not even know when Yom Kippur was.

Dr. A was at a loss for words, but that gentleman decided to break his all-day Yom-Kippur fast with

Ham on rye

And Dr. A speculated that God might prefer honest atheism to hypocritical piety.

Note: Dr. A was a Jewish atheist, just like Carl Sagan.

04-12-2003, 01:13 PM	#38
LLaurieG Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: So. California Posts: 116	You're not a hedonist. You're a PRAGMATIST. (Laurie) To paraphrase this idea of yours, Shome: "I'm thinking about deluding myself to be a believer, because most people in this country are Christian believers. That way I'll fit in better, and PS: I'm worried about reducing my potential pool of mates if I 'come out' as the atheist I really am. So I'm considering making use of a peculiar ability I have for self-deception to POSE as a believer when in believer company." It's been a long thread, you're confused on some terms, and you've contradicted yourself a couple times, as Koyaanisqatsi has noted. But cutting through all that, I think your main concerns come through. #1: You think it's easier being a member of the cultural majority. You're right about that: it generally is. But the simple fact is, you don't happen to BE a member of this majority. #2: You're concerned about limiting your pool of potential mates if you openly identify yourself as an atheist. You think it's more prudent - in fact that's the main thrust of your initial post - to lay low, blend in, pretend to go along. This is why I identify you as a pragmatist. You propose doing that which is expedient in order to maximize your chance of happiness. This is a fairly intelligent way to operate. But the tightrope you still need to walk as a pragmatist is the same one of principle, of courage and integrity that Koyaanisquatsi mentioned. This is especially important with regard to attracting the person you hope to love for life. Because unless you live your own life honestly, conduct yourself with integrity, you cannot expect to attract others who behave the same way. If you equivocate, or are deliberately DISHONEST about who you are and what you [don't] believe, you do not deserve a quality courageous, honest woman of integrity as your mate. It doesn't have to be the first thing to come up in a conversation with an attractive potential date - and it usually isn't - but when the topic of religion does eventually come up, I strongly suggest you take a deep, courageous breath and reply that "you have a hard time with some of the concepts that Christians are expected or required to believe." Tell her you think that babies are born innocent... that you really don't believe that all humans are born inherently evil and deficient (the CORE belief of Christianity). This will immediately warm the cockles of almost any woman's heart. If she seems receptive, lightly say you think it's almost abusive to make children believe this... you think that's wrong; it just feels wrong to you. Get the idea? Do it lightly - do not push. Gauge her reaction. Pretty soon you can introduce the next Christian concept you "have a hard time" believing: that people of other religions, no matter how good and kind they are, under Christianity are condemned to burn in Hell because they do not 'accepted Jesus.' That this strikes you, personally, as both unfair and wrong. You do not feel - personally - very kindly disposed toward a god who would make such a rule. Making "I" statements is always the best approach with delicate topics. In other words, gently but firmly be yourself - an atheist. You are one of the enlightened, not one of the brainwashed. Be proud of what you are: someone who has passed through the religious stage and come out the other side. You are open-minded, tolerant, a decent, kindly, compassionate person - one reluctant to have narrowminded, exclusionary, "only WE are right" mentality people around you. You want to attract a quality mate? THAT'S how.

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04-11-2003, 07:35 AM	#31
Non-praying Mantis Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Roanoke, VA, USA Posts: 2,646	shome42, Perhaps you can "convince yourself" that you are a Christian but I see several potential problems with this: 1) How about your future girlfriend/wife? You mentioned that your were interested in putting up the facade of Christianity in order to increase your potential pool of possible mates. Well here I see a few problems. If you lie about your feelings on Christianity, don't you think that your S.O. will find out sometime? When she does, do you think that she will be able to trust you anymore? Also, when she does, do you think that she might attempt to convert you to Christianty, for real? Or, maybe she might wonder why you are an atheist with a Christian facade, and why did you lie to everybody, including her? 2) Children. Let's assume that you do succeed in finding a S.O. and you decide to get married and have children. What will you teach them? What will you tell them what you think about Christianity: lies or the truth. Can you really deceive your children that way? Also, if you decide to tell them the truth, then most certainly your S.O. might find out and you will have Vicar Philip's - "strumming for Jesus" situation on your hands. Can you really accept yourself lying to them? Do you want your children to grow up and not question Christianity at all? Just some potential problems... NPM

04-11-2003, 09:24 AM	#33
Buddrow_Wilson Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Arkansas Posts: 1,589	If you took the search for a mate out of the equation, what then? Would you still be tempted to fake christianity? My last two serious relationships were with a "weak deist" and a firm atheist like myself. Neither of them began with a discussion about beliefs or religion. I honestly don't think being a chrisitian will have the women beating down your door. Your attitude is concerns me. There is probably other reasons why you are having trouble finding someone.

04-11-2003, 12:31 PM	#36
Buddrow_Wilson Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Arkansas Posts: 1,589	Ok, I don't understand then. Why not just let a relationship happen with someone you are dating. If problems arise you move on to someone else. Eventually you would find someone compatible with who you really are. I'm still scratching my head over your motives.

04-13-2003, 02:06 AM	#40
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Somehow, this thread reminds me of this incident that the late Dr. Isaac Asimov had described. One time, he wanted to meet with some acquaintance for dinner somewhere, and he chose a date that happened to be the evening that begins Yom Kippur, the Jewish Day of Repentance. When his acquaintance protested that he will be at his devotions on that day, the two chose the evening right after. So when they showed up on that day, Dr. A's acquaintance denounced him for being a bad Jew who did not even know when Yom Kippur was. Dr. A was at a loss for words, but that gentleman decided to break his all-day Yom-Kippur fast with Ham on rye And Dr. A speculated that God might prefer honest atheism to hypocritical piety. Note: Dr. A was a Jewish atheist, just like Carl Sagan.

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