ImGod

Interesting letter. If you allow me to skip around like that I could make the same letter with the US tax code.

But, that wouldn't necessarily give us any better indication about how the government really thinks of us.

Mageth

Originally posted by Disciple
We need salvation from the sin that is causing a seperation between us and God.

Aah, the god of the exclusive Abrahamic religions, that separate god from man, man from nature, god from nature, and even man from man. And all part of God's plan and desire to be in a relationship with a select group, not all of us.

The Abrahamic religions that are the cause of much of the strife we see in the world today, and much of the strife we've seen in the world for the last 3000 years ago.

The Abrahamic religions that evolved from predecessor religions such as the Semitic myths and Zoroastrianism, among other religions.

You can drop the "we" bit. Hindus and Buddhists all over the world recognize the destructive nature of such a belief that separates man from God. I do too.

It's time humanity sheds itself of such an archaic concept. In fact, it's 2000 years or so past time.

God does not demand salvation, but offers it freely as a gift to us. He hurts deeply when we walk away from this gift, because all God wants is to be in a relationship with us....

I want a relationship with my son, too. And no matter what he does, I'll always be open to such a relationship. I'll never require any sort of pennance from him to be in a relationship with me; whatever he does, he'll always be my son, and I'll always love him. And for sure I'll never have any sort of punishment for him if he refuses that relationship, especially not an eternity of suffering.

I too am a father, and respectfully ask you to visit the following link to get a better understanding of how God really feels about us...

http://www.fathersloveletter.com/flltextenglish.html

Oh, okay. A bunch of meaningless quotes from a book about a ficticious god. That helps your point a lot.

From the letter:

My question is…Will you be my child?…John 1:12-13

A question no loving father would ever ask of a child. My son is my child.

And the letter conveniently left out the footnotes:

Matthew 8:12 "But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell."

Matthew 13:41-42 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. "

Matthew 25:41,46 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels....And these shall go away into everlasting punishement: but the righteous into life eternal."

Luke 12:5 "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."

Revelations 20:12,15 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."


What a picture of a loving father!

Evangelion

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know you lived in Wonderland. My mistake. Anyway, I just wanted to say "Good luck saving the planet!" Hell, I just can't want to hear your solution for global warming, worldwide poverty, disease, mental disorders and human mortality - and I bet the UN is all agog, too! So go for it, big boy! Give it your best shot, eh!

You've got the whole thing backwards. How's that for a start?

:banghead: Then you must be a fundy in disguise.

Look, I've posted the absolute reverse of what you said. But you can't see a difference?! Then I'm obviously wasting my time here.

Death without the possibility of resurrection. No hellfire. No eternal torment. Just absolute death with a bit of slow decay thrown in for good measure. Does that sound so dreadful to you?

You must be a remarkable person if you genuinely offer unqualified love to your son, regardless of who he is or what he does. I guess that would make you the philanthropist of the year.

There is no human equivalent of salvation, nor can there be. That's the whole point. And in any case, salvation isn't a part of the Father/children analogy. It's a point of soteriology. That's another subject altogether.

Every analogy breaks down somewhere.

Mageth

Originally posted by Evangelion
Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know you lived in Wonderland.

I'm not the one who believes in Peter Pan and Tinkerbell, Evangelion.

My mistake. Anyway, I just wanted to say "Good luck saving the planet!" Hell, I just can't want to hear your solution for global warming, worldwide poverty, disease, mental disorders and human mortality - and I bet the UN is all agog, too! So go for it, big boy! Give it your best shot, eh!

Odd; I don't recall saying I have the solutions. Oh well.

You've got the whole thing backwards. How's that for a start?

:banghead: Then you must be a fundy in disguise.

Look, I've posted the absolute reverse of what you said. But you can't see a difference?! Then I'm obviously wasting my time here.

Why don't you spell it out for me, then? Whatever it is you're trying to say hasn't come across yet. Could that (gasp!) possibly be the results of a failure to communicate clearly on your part?

If someone ask for a clarification, Evangelion, it's considered polite just to give it to them. The fact that I am confused over your post is more an indication of your failure to communicate than my failure to understand.

So stop wasting our time and explain it to me - how is what you said different than what I said? Specifically, how exactly is:

[God] somehow demands some kind of "salvation" for his children before he [will] accept them

different from:

it's something He gives us as a result of accepting Him, and it's even offered before we've made up our minds on the subject.

What difference does it make which way you say it? It boils down to salvation == acceptance, either way. If you don't accept god, you won't receive salvation. If you don't receive salvation, god won't accept you.

Death without the possibility of resurrection. No hellfire. No eternal torment. Just absolute death with a bit of slow decay thrown in for good measure. Does that sound so dreadful to you?

No; that's exactly how the world works, for all of us.

You must be a remarkable person if you genuinely offer unqualified love to your son, regardless of who he is or what he does. I guess that would make you the philanthropist of the year.

No, merely a father. Deal with it.

There is no human equivalent of salvation, nor can there be. That's the whole point. And in any case, salvation isn't a part of the Father/children analogy. It's a point of soteriology. That's another subject altogether.

There's no need for "salvation" in any case. We, as humans, just need to learn how to live the best we can in the world we have.

Every analogy breaks down somewhere.

Yes, I guess it's not right to compare god to a loving father.

Defiant Heretic

Don't you think there's a slight difference between "No relationship with God" and "No relationship with God, plus you get to burn in a lake of fire"? Besides, how do you know that some atheists wouldn't want a relationship with your god if they thought he existed?

suitsusir

"For the non-believer, how do you explain the feeling that having a direct relationship with Christ, offers?" There is much love", etc

I have to take issue with the whole concept of a "direct relationship with Christ". What on earth does this mean? How can you have a "direct relationship" with someone you've never seen or met? When I listen to Xians talk this way, I'm reminded of an event that happened six years ago. I arrived in England the day after Princess Diana was killed. The whole country was steeped in a bizarrely mawkish, quasi-religious, collective weep-in in response to her death. I was particularly struck by the comments from a parade of teary "ordinary" people I kept seeing on TV saying things like "she was so good, we loved her so much". Interestingly, this was from people who had never met her. I simply couldn't understand it. I repeat, how can you love someone you've never met?

I love my hopelessly impractical father, my wise and level-headed mother, my four siblings with their quirks, foibles and imperfections, and my indisputably gorgeous girlfriend. And that's about it. But these are people I've met, I've seen them, hugged them, discussed everything under the sun with them, shared real experiences with them. I've had a direct relationship with these few mortals that IS real, not based on make believe or wishful thinking.

BTW, my whole take on the Diana episode was - sure, it's tragic when a 36 year old woman gets killed. However, hundreds of people are killed in car crashes every day and who weeps for them or puts teddy bears and flowers in front of their houses and appears on national TV? The difference, of course, was that she was a media creation, a projection, an "icon". And in many ways it's the same with the Xian god. TV and magazines created Diana and the whole blub-fest that accompanied her demise just as the bible and all the various flavours of the Xian religion that indoctrinate children with nonsense created this mythical figure - Jesus who supposedly loves everyone. Sorry, I've never met him, I haven't even shaken his hand, so how can I have a "direct relationship with him"?

The bottom line IMO - love is real, but only if it involves people who exist, people you have met and know and - especially important point here - who love you too. Otherwise, we're talking imaginary friends here. Self-delusion. BS.

My advice to you, Disciple, is love your family and friends and there's a good chance they will love you in return. Love the real people who are close to you. There is no one else worth loving or being loved by.

Nowhere357

Disciple, you should know that this is seen as offensive by many people. Failing to believe - especially when an effort has been made to learn and understand the truth - is not equivalent to a rejection of the "gift".

Iow, many atheists do not reject god - they simply are unaware of her existence.

So please don't say we walk away from a gift that is so hard to see. It directly implies that we reject god and choose hell, which is a non-truth - a lie - and is offensive.

Nowhere357

Good post, I agree with all of it - except for this part.

I definitely felt powerful love for my first unborn child, before I met the kid. The feeling arose when I first learned my wife was pregnant. The feeling was far stronger than any romantic or brotherly love that I've ever felt.

Darwin26

...i had a lot of good laffs. thanks Chimp
i found the original post just ludicrous... i'm a non believer so why would i this connection??? It's like, *for those of you who are "weightless" how do you feel about direct gravity? Christ i hate gravity. What a stupid invention.

And my next thought is ...why does this xian come here with his distorted question? Is he so uncomfortable with his salvation ? i'm content with my life and views but do i make up ironic moronic questions and pose them to folks who have no use or interest ...?
Perhaps mr Disciple is just another one dimentional ruse ... Or maybe wondering how is it to be content without some Mythical master and his conundrums?


For the non-believer, how do you explain the feeling that having a direct relationship with Christ, offers?
[QUOTE]

if you love jesis why not just stay with jesis lovers or is it your eternal job function is to convert us...

all children are born atheists.

suitsusir

Nowhere357, I take your point. However, the baby both you and your wife loved, even in utero, was real and eventually arrived. It was not a figment of your imagination. IOW, your love for your unborn child was genuine because it was for someone close to you. And how much closer can a human being get to anyone than his or her offspring? It was certainly not the same as the bogus concepts of love I described above - for characters you have either never met, ie in a book of fairy tales (JC), or are very unlikely to have met, a celeb on TV (Princess Di).