Goober

Nice quote, a fan of literature, I presume?

Anyway, it's a problem that if god defies logic then how do you argue logically about him (or her)? I think that's the problem Ogotay was alluding to.

But to me, the universe is logical, we are logical (or some of us are ) so it seems a bit ludicrous to suggest that god is illogical and that makes it valid to believe without logic. After all, Santa is illogical too.

yguy

Then good luck finding one. Of course it's a waste of time anyway, because having a definition of God doesn't mean you know what you're talking about any more than knowing the definition of combat means you have the slightest idea of what combat actually is.

yguy

I'd say not, because God has an infinite number of significant attributes; therefore a process of elimination leaves Him no more definable than when you started.

You are forgetting the capacity of humans for denying the obvious, a practice which God allows but does not countenance.

It would also be what we'd see if the God many people believe in IS a fictional being; that would not preclude the existence of a real God.

Philosoft

Well, we don't need to know all these things, do we? I mean, if God has an unchanging nature, he ought to be rather predictable if we can understand some generalities. If we know God disapproves of sin in all cases, we don't need to wonder what God thinks about Mohammed Atta's actions. Simple deduction.

So is there a rule-of-thumb that idenifies which obvious things we tend to deny, or is it more of a random process?
No, but a God who approves of, or merely allows, religious chaos is an easier target.

yguy

I don't see anything patently wrong here.

We deny that which tends to expose our own stupidity. The Muslims who are so compulsive about women covering their heads are denying that fact that this belief has been programmed into them - just as many Christians believe the Bible to be the word of God for the same reason.

You'd like Him better if He enforced His will on everybody?

Theli

If we cannot disprove god's existence because of his illogical nature (bullshit), then we cannot prove his existence either. And why do we have to disprove something that hasn't been proven yet? It would be like attempting to kill a dead animal.
On a more serious note, for X (in this case "god") to be said to exist it must describe something tanglible in reality, and do so through definitions (like any other word, thing or object). If the definition of X does not describe something either directly observed, or probable cause for something else observed, X does not exist.
In this case the "god" has no definition, does not describe anything in reality and thus does not exist.
If something were to found and we wish to call this "god" we must first then assign a definition to the word, and first then can we say that "god" exists.
And as for reality, reality is neither logical nor illogical as logic exists in our minds.
I'm abit confused to how this agnostic was able to label this god "illogical" if this god was infact illogical. It would be like comprehending that god is incomprehensible, or seeing that god is invisible... and isn't "illogical" a definition?
Shame on him.

Ogotay

Well, after narrowing down the basis of religious belief to "I believe and therefore it exists", which is clearly not logical unless existence includes fictional beings, he agreed that for God to exist he would to us be an illogical being.

It's all about how we are to use our sense of logic in deciding to believe or not to believe, since believing would be defying it.

Nowhere357

Well then, since if you know the definition of combat then you have at least a slight idea of what combat actually is, then maybe we can have a definition of God and know what we're talking about.

Really you are not making sense. You claim to be able to tell us what god is not - so you are using some definition for "god", AND you are claiming to know what you are talking about. By your own explanation above, we should accept what you say as a meaningless waste of time.

Goober

Hey I think it's time for a Douglas Adams style quote!

God defies logic so anything that can be the subject of a logical proof or disproof cannot be god. But creationism is proof of god (yeah, right!), so god is not god. (God dissappears in puff of logic)

On a more serious note, I've often noticed that many theists will have no problems dismissing any logical objection to god with "ahhh, but god defies logic", but if they find anything remotely resembling evidence for god, they go "god must exist, look at how logical this evidence is!!!".

yguy

Evidently you have access to some part of my mind that I do not.