Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ohwilleke · 06-02-2003, 07:33 PM

I must agree with Vork that there is more authoritarianism in Europe, and more tolerance of it, than in the U.S.

Similarly, in the U.S. citizenship is a consequence of being born here, in most of Europe, it flows from who your parents are.

While Europe is more left leaning than the U.S. on many issues, it also has strong facisist leaning element (Austria, Italy and France all come to mind). In contrast, American conservatives distrust central authority -- they are part of churches with no central organization, distrust the U.N. and the federal government, and have a fear of government spying on them and intruding in their business.

Gurdur · 06-03-2003, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ohwilleke
I must agree with Vork that there is more authoritarianism in Europe, and more tolerance of it, than in the U.S.
.....
While Europe is more left leaning than the U.S. on many issues, it also has strong facisist leaning element....

This explains the freedom of marijuana in the Netherlands, including official hash caf�s, because it is more authoritarian than the States.
hang on......

This explains legalized prost�tution and bordellos in Germany, because it is more authoritarian than the States.
hang on......

This explains Sweden's Freedom Of Information act, the best in the world (both practically and theoretically) because Sweden is more authoritarian than the States.
hang on......

This explains why neoNazism is illegal in Germany, but legal in the States, because Germany is more authoritarian and tolerant of authoritarianism than the States.
hang on......

This explains why neoNazism is so unpopular in Germany that it depends on regular large cash infusions from neoNazis in the States. Far more neoNazis per capita in the States than in Germany, far more. Because Germany is more authoritarian and tolerant of authoritarianism than the States.
hang on......

This explains why during the recent anti-nuclear-reprocessing protests at Castor, the German police website happily swapped links with the protestors' website, so they both had a link to each other on their front pages. Because Germany is more authoritarian and tolerant of authoritarianism than the States.
hang on......

This explains why it is really easy for a German town to make a formal legal protest against a Federal or state law, and to force reexamination. As often happens.
hang on......

This explains why German churches have a legal right to asylum of illegal immigrants under threat of expulsion, and use often, because Germany is more authoritarian and tolerant of authoritarianism than the States.
hang on......

never mind, why should I interrupt an agitprop meeting ?

Jat · 06-03-2003, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Luiseach
...and Canada, as you mentioned....and Scotland, and England, and Ireland, and Germany, and India, and China, and South Africa, and Australia, and .... well, you know what I mean...

Not one of these nations has a monopoly on heterogeneity.

Whoops, wrong word. I was thinking of homogeneity.

Jat · 06-03-2003, 02:49 AM

Originally posted by Optional

Um... Where did I mention Canada? I'm pretty sure the topic never came up... Well, anyhoo, there's a leeeetle problem with those statistics you use. 'White' as an ethnic group covers a whole HELL of a lot of territory... British Isles, French, Other European just to START with. If you're gonna compare ethnic group statistics, at least use the SAME ethnic groups...

Even our "whites" only total up to 66%, in the USA it is 77.1%.

As far as more actual diversity in canada... I dunno, I'm unfamiliar with canadian culture, but my FEEL is, you basically have three distinct groups: french canadians, native canadians, and everybody else. That is almost certainly a massive simplification, yes? Well, you seem to have about the same real feel for american culture as I have for canadian culture. There are HUGE differences between various sections of america... Hell, there are huge differences between various sections of any given city.

So anyway, by your definition what is the difference between 'melting pot' and 'multicultural'? Curious am I.

-me

Melting pot is more like assimulation and multiculturalism more individual.

Jat · 06-03-2003, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Luiseach
I kind of agree with you here, actually...it threw me for a loop as well. :-D

Jat? Care to explain why you chose Japan as an example for cultural heterogeneity?

I didn't. I just was thinking of the wrong word. I don't let Gudur bother me since he is just being an ass.

Gurdur · 06-03-2003, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jat

I didn't. I just was thinking of the wrong word. I don't let Gudur bother me since he is just being an ass.

ROFL !
It must be true love.

Vorkosigan · 06-03-2003, 03:53 AM

I must agree with Vork that there is more authoritarianism in Europe, and more tolerance of it, than in the U.S.

I never said that. One poster claimed the Patriot Act could never happen in Europe. I slapped that down, is all. Europe has not repealed human nature.

a claim, IIRC, contradicted by the actual evidence; volunteerism has been dropping steadily in the States since the 1950's

<shrug> Cites please. 6 of ten teenagers volunteer now, for example. In the 50s it was better? Don't make me laugh.

Survey finds Youth volunteerism at 50 year high

There are 7-8 million NGOs in the US....a whole network of stuff that didn't exist in the '50s. No environmental movement, for example. No corporate volunteer programs. No Peace Corps and similar development orgs. Etc. I'd love to see the data.

Vorkosigan

Vorkosigan

Jat · 06-03-2003, 04:55 AM

Originally posted by Vorkosigan
<shrug> Cites please. 6 of ten teenagers volunteer now, for example. In the 50s it was better? Don't make me laugh.

What was the per capita ratio? And how many of them were busy doing other things like fighting in wars and the like?

Survey finds Youth volunteerism at 50 year high

File not found.

Evangelion · 06-03-2003, 05:37 AM

Quote:

This explains the freedom of marijuana in the Netherlands, including official hash caf�s, because it is more authoritarian than the States.
hang on......

This explains legalized prost�tution and bordellos in Germany, because it is more authoritarian than the States.
hang on......

This explains Sweden's Freedom Of Information act, the best in the world (both practically and theoretically) because Sweden is more authoritarian than the States.
hang on......

This explains why neoNazism is illegal in Germany, but legal in the States, because Germany is more authoritarian and tolerant of authoritarianism than the States.
hang on......

This explains why neoNazism is so unpopular in Germany that it depends on regular large cash infusions from neoNazis in the States. Far more neoNazis per capita in the States than in Germany, far more. Because Germany is more authoritarian and tolerant of authoritarianism than the States.
hang on......

This explains why during the recent anti-nuclear-reprocessing protests at Castor, the German police website happily swapped links with the protestors' website, so they both had a link to each other on their front pages. Because Germany is more authoritarian and tolerant of authoritarianism than the States.
hang on......

This explains why it is really easy for a German town to make a formal legal protest against a Federal or state law, and to force reexamination. As often happens.
hang on......

This explains why German churches have a legal right to asylum of illegal immigrants under threat of expulsion, and use often, because Germany is more authoritarian and tolerant of authoritarianism than the States.
hang on......

Gudur, once again you confirm your status as a total legend. :notworthy

My only gripe is that you forgot to mention Finland and her legendary Internet legislation.

Just ask Psycho Dave why he shifted his Chick parodies onto a Helsinki server...

Quote:

As you may or may not know, Finnish authorities don't really care much about locating copyright infringers, since the Church Of Scientology caused a scandal with anon.pennet.fi, where they tried to force the finnish authorities to hunt down anonymous email addresses of people who were sending messages containing official "copyrighted" church documents to various newsgroups.

Since then, Finnish authorities have avoided such cases, to protect end-users.

Gotta love those funky Finns.

Gurdur · 06-03-2003, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan
...
<shrug> Cites please. 6 of ten teenagers volunteer now, for example. In the 50s it was better? Don't make me laugh.

We're starting off so well, aren't we ?

Quote:

Survey finds Youth volunteerism at 50 year high

File not found. Tsk.

Quote:

There are 7-8 million NGOs in the US....a whole network of stuff that didn't exist in the '50s. No environmental movement, for example. No corporate volunteer programs. No Peace Corps and similar development orgs. Etc.

OTOH; there were a whole horde of other volunteer organizations in the 1950's.

Quote:

I'd love to see the data.

Out of interest, how many times do you wish me to repeat the link to Putnam's study Bowling Alone, which gives the data, examines criticisms, competing hypotheses, and conclusions ?

I distinctly remember recommending this study at least a year ago here; I recommended it again with a link in this thread.

Surely you wouldn't want me to break copyright by reproducing all the data here in this thread ?

oh, and I'ld like to see your data. Perhaps you could give a better link ?

I won't make any remarks about making one laugh.

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06-02-2003, 07:33 PM	#61
ohwilleke Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Denver, Colorado, USA Posts: 4,834	I must agree with Vork that there is more authoritarianism in Europe, and more tolerance of it, than in the U.S. Similarly, in the U.S. citizenship is a consequence of being born here, in most of Europe, it flows from who your parents are. While Europe is more left leaning than the U.S. on many issues, it also has strong facisist leaning element (Austria, Italy and France all come to mind). In contrast, American conservatives distrust central authority -- they are part of churches with no central organization, distrust the U.N. and the federal government, and have a fear of government spying on them and intruding in their business.

06-03-2003, 02:49 AM	#64
Jat Banned Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 1,311	Originally posted by Optional Um... Where did I mention Canada? I'm pretty sure the topic never came up... Well, anyhoo, there's a leeeetle problem with those statistics you use. 'White' as an ethnic group covers a whole HELL of a lot of territory... British Isles, French, Other European just to START with. If you're gonna compare ethnic group statistics, at least use the SAME ethnic groups... Even our "whites" only total up to 66%, in the USA it is 77.1%. As far as more actual diversity in canada... I dunno, I'm unfamiliar with canadian culture, but my FEEL is, you basically have three distinct groups: french canadians, native canadians, and everybody else. That is almost certainly a massive simplification, yes? Well, you seem to have about the same real feel for american culture as I have for canadian culture. There are HUGE differences between various sections of america... Hell, there are huge differences between various sections of any given city. So anyway, by your definition what is the difference between 'melting pot' and 'multicultural'? Curious am I. -me Melting pot is more like assimulation and multiculturalism more individual.

06-03-2003, 03:53 AM	#67
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	I must agree with Vork that there is more authoritarianism in Europe, and more tolerance of it, than in the U.S. I never said that. One poster claimed the Patriot Act could never happen in Europe. I slapped that down, is all. Europe has not repealed human nature. a claim, IIRC, contradicted by the actual evidence; volunteerism has been dropping steadily in the States since the 1950's <shrug> Cites please. 6 of ten teenagers volunteer now, for example. In the 50s it was better? Don't make me laugh. Survey finds Youth volunteerism at 50 year high There are 7-8 million NGOs in the US....a whole network of stuff that didn't exist in the '50s. No environmental movement, for example. No corporate volunteer programs. No Peace Corps and similar development orgs. Etc. I'd love to see the data. Vorkosigan Vorkosigan

06-03-2003, 04:55 AM	#68
Jat Banned Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 1,311	Originally posted by Vorkosigan <shrug> Cites please. 6 of ten teenagers volunteer now, for example. In the 50s it was better? Don't make me laugh. What was the per capita ratio? And how many of them were busy doing other things like fighting in wars and the like? Survey finds Youth volunteerism at 50 year high File not found.

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