bluefugue

Well Mr. Terrier, I'm with you insofar as I would prefer Zeus to YHWH, if it came to that. YHWH has no sense of humor at all...

However, it's still an interesting question -- why do Gods want to be worshipped? I think most, including the Greco-Romans, have desired this in one form or another. Are they bored or lonely? I remember a Star Trek episode ("Who Mourns For Adonis?") that suggested Gods needed worship like humans need food... but this would not be the case for omnimax Gods, only Gods who actually have limits on their power.

Ojuice5001

That's what I think. If the need to be worshipped were an emotional need, I think the gods would have outgrown it by now--I somehow can't imagine that, if worship were about the gods' egos, after thousands of years the gods still haven't just plain gotten tired of being worshipped by talking apes. But if being worshipped is beneficial in a practical sense, then naturally the gods would never stop caring about it.

Being worshipped by humans is, I think, only one of the ways that this divine need can be filled. But it is still preferable to have the need fulfilled by being worshipped; just as a human can eat lots of different things, but may strongly prefer to eat fried eggs every day.

Edited to add: This certainly is NOT inconsistent with my other idea that there are gods whose plan for the world excludes being worshipped. As the unedited post clarifies, there are other ways to satisfy the need to be worshipped. And as for actively promoting atheism, there are plenty of possible reasons. Maybe the atheist pantheon has a way to tap spiritual power that only works on atheists. Or maybe it is desirable to have souls that enter the afterlife in a state of irreligion. Or maybe the idea is to put an embargo on Yahweh, in which case this pro-atheism policy is only temporary. Problems? I didn't think so.

[ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: Jupiter's Terrier ]</p>

Deistic Heretic

You have obviously never been to Europe.

Keith Russell

Greetings:

A more relevant question might be:
Why do so many people feel the need to worship?

I still don't have a clue to the answer to that question...

Keith.

faustuz

Indeed I did not. In fact I believe I said quite the opposite, that if God were indeed to exist He would be under no obligation whatsoever. If God is God then He there is absolutely no need for Him to meet any expectations: he could lie, cheat, torture, act like a spoiled brat, whatever. After all, He would be God. What is a mere mortal to say about what He can and can not be? What I am saying that there is, as I see it, evidence of the spoiled brat version of God, or no God at all, in the universe. Others will undoubtedly contest that and state, for instance, that millions of children born with Aids in Central Africa is a good thing, that I’m simply not seeing the big picture that only God can see. That may well be the case, but unfortunately I was given only my mere mortal sensibility and I use that as best I’m able. That sensibility does not allow me to see a greater good in mass starvation, plague and genocide. In fact, if God exists then He created me with a sensibility that allows me to only see these things as evil, I’m completely incapable of seeing a greater good in Stalin’s or Pol Pot’s mass murders for instance. If there is indeed somebody on this forum or elsewhere who is able to see a greater good in these things, somebody who is thus closer to mind of the hypothetical God, I wish they would come forward. I’m very interested in hearing what they have to say.

On a side note I find it very interesting that most adherents of the major contemporary Western religions (as contrasted with most pagans as exemplified by our friend Jupiter's Terrier) seem to place severe limitations on the nature of God. For instance Christians claim that the bible is divinely inspired and so must be true. Well, by what reason might it not indeed be divinely inspired but be entirely false? By what reason should we limit God by not allowing Him to be a compulsive liar? I’ve often heard Christians explaining away the evils of the world by saying that we simply don’t understand God and His greater plan. Acknowledging this, however, they will not take the next logical step, i.e. that they might not understand God’s plan at all, that they might have it completely wrong. Again I say if God is God, the omnipotent omniscient creator of space and time and all things therein then for us, mere worms in relation to Him, to make any claim about His nature seems to me to be extremely presumptuous. Even if one holds that that their faith itself is divinely inspired, that the Holy Spirit entered them and caused the truth to be revealed, why assume that that is indeed the truth? Why not a lie? Because God is incapable?


Thanks.

99Percent

Simple, it's a lack of self-esteem.

faustuz

I absolutely think that that is a more relevant question and is the real aim of my post, if somewhat obliquely. I personally think I have some idea, although certainly not the definitive answer (I am Not A Psychologist). I think that people have a need to not really feel in control. They already feel that the Universe is out of their control and so have a need to explain that fact which otherwise disturbs them. I touched on that in my original post. Furthermore I think that people have a need to not be in control themselves. Their freedom causes them dread, they fear that they can not handle the responsibility. The “happiness of slaves” Nietzsche called it, or Dostoyevsky’s Grand Inquisitor. It’s better to feel that one is not in control of the situation. This thought, I believe, causes people comfort.

I’m sure there are other reasons as well.

Keith Russell

faustuz;

Ahh, the fear of responsibility, the desire for an infallible parent who has all the answers...

...makes sense to me.

Keith.

abe smith

If there WERE a "god', "HE" wouldn't/doesn't need a damn thing. = "neither man's works nor His own gifts" (Wow been decades since I thot of/quoted Milton) A "fact" which makes all the more incomprehensible theists's assertion of "Creation".

A3

Hi faustuz
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can see your point and assume you base this on the Old Testament. As you may know, reading and understanding are two different things. The OT was written by and for people who were very much in a childlike state, very literal and external. As any parent knows, you often have to impress on a child that if it does not do what you say, it will get hurt. This is about how to hold a knife, cross the street, talking to strangers etc. It is a message from a loving parent.
The basic message in the NT is the same but on a higher level. I would guess it is more on a teenage level. “I made you and know you inside and out. I know what is best for you and what will make you most happy.” This attitude would naturally bring goose pimples to anyone who had an abusive parent or one with any obvious faults. But this is where the omnipotence and omniscience come in. God does not have any of the short comings we do, He is perfect. This changes the message from possible oppression and self-indulgence (bully) to one of help, support and love. Standing at the door and knocking is hardly the approach of a bully.
God’s creation has but one purpose and that is a heaven from the human race and we are all invited. No one is forced. Anyone, willfully choosing to go against the spirit of the ten commandments is just as willfully throwing their ticket away.
This means (as God still loves them) they get to go to their heaven (which I would call hell) and have the ‘fun’ of making people sick or throw hammers at them.

Regards
Adriaan