Freethought & Rationalism Archive

hinduwoman · 04-02-2002, 05:37 PM

amos, it is true that untouchables do not committ suicide very often, merely because of their status. However, I don't think that except those who made it to prosperity and political power they are very happy.

This is all the more problematic because untouchables themselves have their own divisions and feminism has not caught up with them yet. It is really irritating to realize that the oppressed are not automatically virtuous.!

04-02-2002, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hinduwoman:
amos, it is true that untouchables do not committ suicide very often, merely because of their status. However, I don't think that except those who made it to prosperity and political power they are very happy.

!

Femminism is not necessarily good in the long run and it is true that suicide is not the measure of all things. It should bewilder us that in the most advanced civilization in the world where we seem to know everything we have crime, abortion, suicide, divorce, nurture and fertility problems like no other place on earth.

No, I don't envy the untouchables but it is difficult for us to really judge their happiness.

FarSeeker · 06-01-2002, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hinduwoman:
where do you think they are gaining their support if not from the priests and missionaries? Also none of the latter has so far condemned such activites.

But asking that question is not the same as providing proof, or evidence of any type. A sfor the article, I have a Time magazine article that blames the attacks on Christian Churches on Hindus and Atheist pushing secularism.

Go figure.

hinduwoman · 06-01-2002, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FarSeeker:


But asking that question is not the same as providing proof, or evidence of any type. A sfor the article, I have a Time magazine article that blames the attacks on Christian Churches on Hindus and Atheist pushing secularism.

Go figure.

Atheists?

wonderful example of cultural worries of one country transferred to another!

Go to
<a href="http://www.hindunet.com/home/social_contemporary_issues/hinduwoman/mislies.htm" target="_blank">this page</a>

Halfway down it lists the illegal activities of the Church in Northeast.

FarSeeker · 06-08-2002, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hinduwoman:
Atheists?

wonderful example of cultural worries of one country transferred to another!

Halfway down it lists the illegal activities of the Church in Northeast.

Oops! sorry, that article was from the U.S. News & World Report, Jan. 25, 1999, p. 40, and perhaps I misunderstood the reference to secularism.

Quote:

Hindu militants say they are only trying to reclaim coreligionists who were "forcibly converted" by foreign missionaries. "They offer all kinds of inducements to get converts, including free schooling and health care," claims Swami Aseemanand, ...

Ah, that is what you mean by force.

But this was in the WESTERN state of Gujarat, "Dangs district." But then, HOW DARE those evil Christians offer FREE EDUCATION!

I mean, that would show that you Atheists are lying when you claim Christains are anti-education and anti-knowledge.

[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: FarSeeker ]

[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: FarSeeker ]

Radcliffe Emerson · 06-08-2002, 09:32 AM

More people should actually study about when and why the bible was written rather than what it says:

Originally posted by Albert Cipriani:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2) How do they know that theirs is the only path, since Hindus too have holy scriptures to tell them about the gods?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because our God explicitly told us He was the Way and the Truth, nothing plural about those words. Which one of their million-plus Hindu gods make the same claim? None? Next!

Historical and scholarly studies of the NT say Jesus never said this at all, it was solely the author's opinion. NO actual eye-witness of Jesus ever recorded anything he said, and this is another of the comments that early Christians never mentioned for almost 300 years.
In fact, Jesus' very humble nature would have prevented him from ever making such a claim. The claim was made decades after he was gone.

beoba · 06-08-2002, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FarSeeker:


But here is your problem, you believe Hitler. Atheists believe Hitler. Need I expound on the implications of this. All the quotes Atheists give regarding Hitler are from his book or his speeches: political propaganda. Why do you accept Hitler's words lpetrich?

[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: FarSeeker ]

Rephrased: "Hitler is an atheist! If Hitler says he isn't, he must be lying! My word is over his about what he believes!!! MUHAHAHA!! BEHOLD MY SABER OF BLIND DENIAL!!

Edit: typo

[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: alphatronics ]

beoba · 06-08-2002, 10:37 PM

what the hell, wrong button

[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: alphatronics ]

NOGO · 06-09-2002, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Albert Cipriani
The correct, dynamic, and non-circular view of perfection is: action is the means whereby a free perfect being expresses itself. Each perfect act expresses its perfection. The first imperfect act expresses its imperfection as that action concurrently transforms it from a perfect to an imperfect being. � Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic

So according to this logic God who is perfect (and therefore can do anything) can perform an imperfect act and become imperfect.

Quote:

Albert Cipriani
The reason such myths do not exist is not because such people do not exist but because such people do not thrill us. Conversely, the reason theistic myths do exist is not because God does not exist, but because even obvious fabrications about something as true as God thrills us. Why is that?
If atheism is true, why does it not excite us enough to fabricate even a single myth? If theism is untrue, why has it excited us enough to fabricate myths in every language on earth?
Could it be that mankind doesn�t find the truth exciting? No. I think it more likely that mankind prefers to lie about the Truth (Theism) than to tell the truth about a lie (atheism).

Quite independent of God, people prefer (thrilled) science fiction to science, dreams to reality, myth to fact.

Without ever bringing God into the discussion I can give examples of all of these.

So according to your logic there is great truth in science finction and dreams because people prefer to lie about the truth (fiction, dreams) then telling the truth about a lie (science and reality).

Quote:

Albert Cipriani
Oh, for some dispassionate mathematical logic around here! I thought you atheists prided yourselves on being logical. The illogic I�m fighting goes like this:
1) The greatest story ever told sounds suspiciously similar to a lot of also-rans.
2) The also-rans were myths.
3) Ergo the greatest story ever told is a myth.

The fact that there are no atheistic myths (unless evolution qualifies) validates your conclusion and supports my point:
1) Atheism is not thrilling.
2) Truth is thrilling.
3) Ergo, Atheism contains no truth.

1) The greatest story ever told sounds suspiciously similar to a lot of also-rans.
2) The also-rans were myths.
3) Ergo the greatest story ever told is a myth.
Such double standards you guys have. It's enough to make me think you have no standards at all. Alas, it's not enough to make you think period. Cheers, Albert the Traditional Catholic

Theophilus
An interesting bit of question begging, don't you think?
A. All accounts of miracles are known to be false.
B. The Bible is full of accounts of miracles.
C. Therefore, the Bible is false.
Anybody see anything missing in this argument (like proof for the first proposition?).

On what authority do you use logic to prove a point?

Quote:

Theophilus
Ah, but the "entire natural world/universe" does not speak, does it. It's just there.
Actually, it is your interpretation of your own sensory impressions. But since sensory impressions convey no knowledge and your mental process are known to be unreliable, where does that leave you?

Mental processes and sensory perception is all that you have to read and understand your bible. Disciples of Jesus had only mental processes and sensory perception to understand what was going on around them. If mental processes are unreliable then the Bible is unreliable because it was written and is read with these unreliable mental processes and sensory perceptions. If you claim that you get information outside these processes then the Bible is useless.

Where does that leave me?
On very solid ground. First of all we have more than sensory perception, we have instruments.
Successes of science need not be listed here. Science is the one area of human endeavor which stands out among the rest. Scientific discoveries are accepted and taught around the world.

Compare it with any religion. Compare if you dare.
Christianity as you claim started with one person and one idea. A few hundred years after it was necessary to suppress by force the multitude of different beliefs that had arisen. It was necessary to brutally impose one view of Christianity. For 1000 years people were prohibited from thinking. Mathematics, sciences, arts were all suppresses in favour of the "TRUTH".

After 1000 years of nothing but the TRUTH people got tired of it. People started to think again. Science, mathematics started to flourish. Christianity broke up in a multitude of beliefs and are ever growing in number. While science progresses in our understanding of the world Christianity is stagnant. It has nothing but old myth to offer.

Quote:

Theophilus
This is patently false. The only place where there were significant European settlements was in southern Africa. These areas, especially South Africa, were largely unsettled and it was a matter of Africans moving down from the north while Europeans were moving up from the south. There were no "thriving" native civilizations which were displaced by the colonists. Just being "on" the continent first does not give automatic land rights.

I suppose that the millions of native black people did not want to move south to the most fertile land in the continent because they wanted to leave it untouched for the white man.

Quote:

Theophilus
Like most of what Augustine said (only Jesus is infallible), this is rather to the point.
Have Christians ever killed/raped/looted/etc.? Unquestionably, the answer is yes.
Are such actions consistent with the "system" which these individuals claim to believe? The answere is just as surely, no.

Wrong! The "system", as you say, dictates that there is only one truth. A consequence of this is that all other religions are false and must be suppressed. Jesus stated that those who do not believe will end up being punished. It is therefore part of the "system" to punish the unfaithful. This idea has been used by the church to slaughter all sorts of people. This idea is germane to all religions based on the Bible.

Compare this with science. Science has known for some time now that the earth is not flat. In the nineteen century there were many people who believed that the earth was flat based on what they read in the Bible. Did science persecute these people? NO. Only religions persecute for beliefs.

Quote:

Theophilus
This is a case of not dealing with the real world. To suggest that "atheism" is only one component of Communism is like saying Mohammed is only one element of Islam.
The only communism we know anything about is the atheistic kind and atheism, rather than being just one component,is the foundation for the system.
The brutality of Soviet/Chinese/NKorean communists is the very outcome of their atheistic view of the individual vs the state.

Wrong again! Atheism has nothing to do with communism. Most atheists that I know are more capitalist than you are Catholic. Atheism is responsible for the freedom of belief and freedom of speech which we all enjoy today. Under religious states no such freedoms existed.

[ June 09, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

hinduwoman · 06-09-2002, 05:45 PM

Farseeker, did you bother to read my page?
The issue is the missionaries claiming moral high ground --- they offer education, and free facilities provided the beneficiaries convert.

Also what are your thoughts about their lies, their involvement in actual violence and money-laundering schemes that I gave on the page?

06-08-2002, 10:37 PM	#218
beoba Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Boston Posts: 699	what the hell, wrong button [ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: alphatronics ]</p>

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04-02-2002, 05:37 PM	#211
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	amos, it is true that untouchables do not committ suicide very often, merely because of their status. However, I don't think that except those who made it to prosperity and political power they are very happy. This is all the more problematic because untouchables themselves have their own divisions and feminism has not caught up with them yet. It is really irritating to realize that the oppressed are not automatically virtuous.!

06-08-2002, 09:32 AM	#216
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	More people should actually study about when and why the bible was written rather than what it says: Originally posted by Albert Cipriani: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) How do they know that theirs is the only path, since Hindus too have holy scriptures to tell them about the gods? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because our God explicitly told us He was the Way and the Truth, nothing plural about those words. Which one of their million-plus Hindu gods make the same claim? None? Next! Historical and scholarly studies of the NT say Jesus never said this at all, it was solely the author's opinion. NO actual eye-witness of Jesus ever recorded anything he said, and this is another of the comments that early Christians never mentioned for almost 300 years. In fact, Jesus' very humble nature would have prevented him from ever making such a claim. The claim was made decades after he was gone.

06-09-2002, 05:45 PM	#220
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Farseeker, did you bother to read my page? The issue is the missionaries claiming moral high ground --- they offer education, and free facilities provided the beneficiaries convert. Also what are your thoughts about their lies, their involvement in actual violence and money-laundering schemes that I gave on the page?

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