brighid

Vegetarianism will not result in death - natural vegetarianism will - no B12 - eventual anemia and all those other bad disease and it will contribute to your death, if not be the direct cause of it. Show me the scientific studies that says man will not die or suffer from disease that will lead to his eventual death without B12! Without the help of supplements you are SOL!

Hey - no one ever said evolution was perfect. It just is!

Brighid

shamon

If you don’t prefer to eat meat RAW or feed your children raw meat, then why considering you said it was the healthiest way to eat meat (b/c of taste and the amount of nutrients lost in the cooking process)?

I'm still curious.

DRFseven

Not so. It's all in preparation and habit, of course. Incidently, some of the spiciest foods in the world are vegetarian.

shamon

“The only reliable unfortified sources of vitamin B12 are meat, dairy products and eggs. There has been considerable research into possible plant food sources of B12. Fermented soya products, seaweeds and algae have all been proposed as possible sources of B12. However, analysis of fermented soya products, including tempeh, miso, shoyu and tamari, found no significant B12.”

How does this require killing? Needless death is what this thread is all about. Of course people will die if they don’t get enough essential nutrients. All of our essential nutrients can be gotten from a VEGATARIAN diet. I understand that you disagree with a “naturally occurring vegetarian diet” providing nutrients but you still haven’t explained what you mean by this phrase.

All vegetarians practice “naturally occurring” vegetarianism. They get all of their essential nutrients from plants or eggs or dairy or even supplements. This doesn’t require killing. They kill only when they have to.

Evolution can be nothing but perfect. It’s not flawed.

[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: shamon ]</p>

shamon

I understand now. You’re a vegetarian, but not a “naturally occurring vegetarian”. I’ve never suggested that anyone become primitive. You can get all of your nutrients from a vegetarian diet. I understand that others may not be able to do this, but YOU can. You own posts say that only a “naturally occurring vegetarian” diet is wrong.

Why not try an “unnaturally occurring” vegetarian diet like others have done. They get all of their essential nutrients from plants sources, eggs, dairy, or supplements. You can too.

brighid

I don’t feed him raw meat because A) he doesn’t like the taste of it B) it tastes better seared. Perhaps you don’t have children and if a child won’t eat something it doesn’t really matter. But I always cook it rare, so it’s as close as it’s gonna get. He doesn’t like sushi either, or my husband, so I guess I have to help them get those nutrients the best way possible and cooked meat is still better then plant sources. I also don’t feed my child fruits and vegetables that haven’t been thoroughly washed so he doesn’t contract any food born illnesses! And we don’t eat a lot of shellfish because at $14.00 or more a lb it’s pretty damned expensive and not living in a coastal area we don’t always get the freshest fair. Sorry – but fish that isn’t fresh is disgusting and not so good for you either. Nor will I fish from many of the local rivers because of pollution concerns. Furthermore, more times then not fresh fish is quite expensive. I wish I had unlimited funds to always choose those things. Also, my husband is allergic to shellfish and I can’t even have the stuff touch his plate, or any other food. What makes you think I eat red meat every day? I eat approximately 1-2 times per week and as I stated in another thread, as soon as we get a second freezer we will be purchasing all of our meat from a local organic farm and splitting one cow between my family and my sister’s family, however a few more chickens will be killed! I think killing ONE cow a year to feed 9 people IS minimizing the harm done, as well as purchasing it from a local farm that is environmentally conscious AND doesn’t use antibiotics, pesticides, etc and allows it’s animals to feed free range!

Therefore, I do the best that I can to minimize the harm done to the environment and that’s the best anyone can ask for.


Brighid

Now – in defense of vegetarian recipes – one can make recipes to be quite flavorful, no reason for vegetables to be bland!

[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: brighid ]</p>

Mageth

I believe the idea that raw meat is more nutritious for humans than cooked meat is a MYTH.

IIRC, cooking meat helps break down enzymes, complex proteins, etc, which your digestive system would have a hard time doing, making them easier for your body to absorb, so cooked meat is actually better for you (more nutritious), easier to digest, and SAFER than raw meat or rare meat.

[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

shamon

&lt; I don’t feed him raw meat because A) he doesn’t like the taste of it B) it tastes better seared. Perhaps you don’t have children and if a child won’t eat something it doesn’t really matter. But I always cook it rare, so it’s as close as it’s gonna get. &gt;

So your criteria for a healthy diet for your family is a. My family must not dislike the taste and b. My family must like taste? Why doesn’t he like what is naturally the most healthy thing in the world for him to eat, RAW MEAT?

The MINIMUM harm YOU can do is to not eat meat. Organic or not, it isn’t required in anyone’s diet, even YOURS. A vegetarian diet involves by definition less suffering.

You’ve enlightened me a lot about your personal dietary habits and the habits of your family (the cost of food items, how many portions, etc.) but you haven’t enlightened me as to why you can’t get all of your nutrients from a vegetarian diet? Notice I did NOT write a “naturally occurring vegetarian” diet. The diet I speak of is the same one that 99% of the people that mention that word ‘vegetarian’ speak of. It’s the same diet the ADA speaks of. You’re the only person I’ve ever encountered that has a different definition of vegetarianism and consequently you’re the only person I’ve ever encountered that uses their own personal definition of vegetarianism (at odds with what 99% of what the people accept) to negate it. Vegetarianism can provide ALL of the essential nutrients we require.

vixstile

quote shamon -If you disagree with my statement, what do you agree with? The needless killing of animals? You’ve written a lot about what you don’t agree with but none about what you agree with.
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I agree with plenty of things, but i acknowledge my own beliefs of right and wrong are completely subjective and in no way determine what is right and wrong for other people

And my cunsumtion of meat is far from needless

NEED=used to indicate that something is required in order to have success or achieve something .

If i want to enjoy the flavor of meat, an animal needs to die.And i am OK with with that.

voltaire321

Shamon, I feel the need to educate you about the eating of raw meat.

When you goto a steakhouse you are expected to inform your waitperson how well done you would like your steak cooked. This is usually described as one of the following: rare, medium rare, medium, medium well, and well done. If you order your steak rare you should expect it to come out cold (or room temperature) in the middle. It is simply seared on all sides. The inside of the steak never reaches sufficient temperature to be cooked to any degree. So a rare steak is cooked on the outside and raw on the inside. Even a medium rare steak can be somewhat raw on the inside, although usually a larger portion of the steak is cooked.

Furthermore steak tar tar is absolutely raw ground steak (typically of high quality, not hamburger meat). Absolutely no heat is applied to it whatsoever. If you look to Lebanese food you will see another example of raw meat. Kebbe is ground beef (and lamb I think) mixed with pine nuts and spices. It is server raw.

As a child my stepfather would take me to the grocery store. While we were wating outside for a cab after our shopping he had the habit of breaking into the hamburger meat and eating it raw (for a snack). I joined him on many occasions, and it's quite yummy. The only reason I stopped was due to the fact that meat processing can introduce dangerous bacteria into ground meat.