Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aikido7 · 08-14-2003, 01:06 PM

oh

Volker.Doormann · 08-14-2003, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by aikido7
oh

Seems that you in doubt. But a hypothesis is not reality as well as fantasy is not reality. This counts.

Secular Pinoy · 08-14-2003, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by aikido7
"Fantasy" may be a bit overblown, don't you think? Isn't there a difference between "fantasy" and "drawing a meaningful conclusion based on factual data to produce a hypothesis?"

Originally posted by Volker.Doormann
No.

Funny that this should come from an astrologer like you.

Doctor X · 08-14-2003, 04:52 PM

Credit due to Shanek of JREF

--J.D.

Peter Kirby · 08-14-2003, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bernard Muller
I explained on my pages how I arrived to that.
First I look at HJ background. Poor, uneducated, rural Jew:
the early years
Then I look at John the Baptist and his great influence. And it just happens that HJ's public life starts right after JB's arrest:
John the Baptist
Dating of HJ & JB
Then I look at what made HJ briefly known: He is credited of having healed (a few) people. That caused a hysteria. Of course the whole thing started by accident, a fluke. And HJ, nor his friends, probably never took this healer thing too seriously (in view of setbacks). The point is, Jesus did not get started as a sayer, and the saying things is marginal:
Jesus' public life
Then I explained Jesus, as an uneducated peasant, talking to other uneducated peasants, could not have got too fancy. Obscure sayings would not have been accepted from him, nor anything theologically involved. His main topic had to be according to his times & audience and very simple:
Jesus' message & followers, and Paul, etc.
I explained very clearly my position on parables (meant for later Christians) starting here, with a lot of evidence:
Jesus' alleged parables
And the late dating of Q (many of it written after GMark) is explained here:
Q, late dating
and for GThomas late dating here:
GThomas late dating

There are other parts of my website where I take on alleged Jesus' sayings, such as in a page called HJ-3a.

Best regards, Bernard

You may have a point with the parable thing. If you can establish that the genre was invented by Mark, for example, that would be a good way to show that it is not authentic. Most of our participants agree that there are ways to determine that there are false stories. What we'd like are guidelines for picking out the true in the indeterminate mass that is left after scrapping the implausible.

Taking what you've said above on this board, here are the heuristics I see:

1. Jesus was an uneducated peasant. Therefore, if it is too fancy, or theologically involved, it is inauthentic.

Actually that's all I see.

The argument seems to be circular. Jesus was an uneducated peasant, because the authentic sayings sound like they are from an uneducated peasant (?), so the fancy sayings are out. One might as well start from the position that the authentic sayings include the fancy ones and that, therefore, Jesus was educated.

best,
Peter Kirby

Rick Sumner · 08-14-2003, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Kirby
You may have a point with the parable thing. If you can establish that the genre was invented by Mark, for example, that would be a good way to show that it is not authentic. Most of our participants agree that there are ways to determine that there are false stories. What we'd like are guidelines for picking out the true in the indeterminate mass that is left after scrapping the implausible.

You'd have a hard time demonstrating that Mark invented the genre:

Quote:

Sages, reflect on this
If a man has a good tree
[which grows] as far as heaven
[and its branches reach(?)]
to the ex[tremitie]s of the lands
yet it [pr]oduces thorny fruits(?)
. . .former rain and latter rain
and in thirst. . .
. . .(4Q302a)

Clearly not enough survives for us to understand the purpose of the parable, but there's no mistaking the genre.

Regards,
Rick

Doctor X · 08-14-2003, 10:12 PM

Burton Mack goes on extensively about the chreia--anecdote--which was very popular in Helenistic literature.

Quote:

The chreia was the form in which a memorable saying by some person was repeated. Most were occasional, coined in response to specific situations.

He gives some examples:

Quote:

To one reproaching him for entering unclean places he said, "The sun, also, enters the privies but is not defiled.

Diogenes Laertius, Lives 6.63

When one of his students said: "Demonax, let us go to the Asclepium and pray for my son," he replied: "You must think Asclepius very deaf, that he can't hear our prayers from where we are."

Now, these are used by Mack to discuss the "pronouncement stories"--". . . answering questions, addressing issues, parrying criticisms, and offering instruction." Nevertheless, I find the technique similar and, therefore, Markan.

However, the parabole [Cannot find an "e" with a "-" over it to give the η--Ed.] has a history in Helenistic literature. Mack explains:

Quote:

In first-century, the term parable . . . did not refer to a story that subverted myth, but to a comparison. [He then discusses a number of comparable types in Greco-Roman literature.--Ed.]

In the rhetorical tradition, a parabole was understood to function as an "argument." From Aristotle on, parabole was regularly paired with paradeigma (paradigm, example) in discussion of the "topics" or sources from which rhetorical arguments could be taken. . . . principles of order and arrangement were not always obvious, and "logic" had to be content with establishing "probabilities" through "inductive" reasoning.

Thus, I agree with ricksummer that Mark did not invent them. He may have "invented" some of the ones in his text. However, regarding the "Mustard Seed:"

Quote:

. . . generally has been understood to be authentic. It was certainly in circulation before Mark used it, as its occurrence both in Q (Luke 13:18-19) and the Gospel of Thomas (GThom 20) attests.

Incidentally:

Quote:

The followers said to Jesus, "Tell us what heaven's kingdom is like."

He said to them, "It is like a mustard seed. <It> is the smallest of all seeds, but when it falls on prepared soil, it produces a large plant and becomes a shelter for birds of heaven."

--J.D.

References:

Burton Mack. A Myth of Innocence: Mark and Christian Origins. Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1988.

Marvin Meyer. The Gospel of Thomas: the Hidden Sayings of Jesus. San Francisco: Harper Collins, 1992.

Volker.Doormann · 08-14-2003, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Secular Pinoy
Funny that this should come from an astrologer like you.

You are on my ignore list.

Secular Pinoy · 08-15-2003, 01:43 AM

Wow, what an honor, thanks. I think I'll sit between ps418 and Oolon Colluphid. Allow me to quote a reply by echidna, another member of the club:

Quote:

Originally posted by Volker.Doormann
Astrology must be a terrible thing, that it is ignored by skeptics in total.

Originally posted by echidna
This is kinda funny from someone whose "Ignore List" covers a sizable proportion of S&S posters & ends most conversations by adding another name.

From here

Doctor X · 08-15-2003, 02:18 AM

[Commence Hijack--Ed.]

I have never put a person on an "Ignore List;" however, I am rather tempted now.

A forum such as this exists to objectively assess evidence for many things--here, biblical texts specifically. This involves challenging preconceived notions. To avoid this by trying to bury one's head in the proverbial sand contravenes the purpose of such boards. I find it difficult to trust the information from a poster who cannot find the fortitude to defend his principles, the humor to laugh at them, and the courage to analyse them.

However, I remain the optimist:

Bad Astronomy

particularly chapter 21: "Mars Is in the Seventh House, but Venus Has Left the Building: Why Astrology Doesn't Work"

If one is against those finding then one should have no difficulty testing for One Million Dollars!!!

[Terminate Hijack--Ed.]

--J.D.

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08-14-2003, 01:06 PM	#31
aikido7 Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Here Posts: 234	oh

08-14-2003, 04:52 PM	#34
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Credit due to Shanek* of* JREF --J.D.

08-15-2003, 02:18 AM	#40
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	[Commence Hijack--Ed.] I have never put a person on an "Ignore List;" however, I am rather tempted now. A forum such as this exists to objectively assess evidence for many things--here, biblical texts specifically. This involves challenging preconceived notions. To avoid this by trying to bury one's head in the proverbial sand contravenes the purpose of such boards. I find it difficult to trust the information from a poster who cannot find the fortitude to defend his principles, the humor to laugh at them, and the courage to analyse them. However, I remain the optimist: Bad Astronomy particularly chapter 21: "Mars Is in the Seventh House, but Venus Has Left the Building: Why Astrology Doesn't Work" If one is against those finding then one should have no difficulty testing for One Million Dollars!!! [Terminate Hijack--Ed.] --J.D.

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