Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Philosoft · 10-25-2002, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HoosierGuy28:
Philosoft,

Christianity isn't a prerequisite for free-will. You have it whether you're a Christian or not. What you do with it is up to you. Everything we do has consequences, whether they be good or bad.

I'm not sure how this addresses my argument. You wrote this:

Quote:

Without the ability to reject God, we do not have free will.

My follow-up question was about the necessity of the ability to reject God and remain a free-willed being. If God "programmed" us with intrinsic knowledge of his existence, or even gave us actual physical evidence that doesn't require meaningless requests to "open your heart," would other free decisions cease to be freely chosen?

Quote:

I would say that most, if not all [evil], is permissable but none of it justified.

Well, if God is the Christian God, it is rather unavoidable that what occurs is strictly permissable. However, that wasn't what I was asking. You wrote this:

Quote:

To reject God would be evil, so for one to have free will, the possibility has to exist to do evil

I wanted to know how much evil is necessary for free will to exist. If we presume the amount of evil that obtains now is precisely what is permitted, then it is conceivable that God could permit more or less evil. Further, rejecting God is but one evil act. Does this one act represent so much of the total necessary evil that its removal would be a violation of free will?

Asha'man · 10-25-2002, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HoosierGuy28:
 I assure you, that if you seek God with an open-heart, you will find Him.

Joel

Your assurance is meaningless, and quite incorrect. I sought God with an open heart, and he ran from me like a coward. I sought for decades, and he was nowhere to be found. I asked, I listened, I sang, I listened, I spoke, I listened, I whispered, and I listened. Either God has no interest in me, or he does not exist.

HoosierGuy28 · 10-25-2002, 03:22 PM

Ronin,

Quote:

Yes, that quite reminds me of another who intentionally limited his use of critical thinking when he said:

You can't always equivocate critical thinking to intellect. Sometimes it can be detrimental to intellect.

Joel

HoosierGuy28 · 10-25-2002, 03:27 PM

Mageth,

Quote:

Interesting. My personal experience has been that there is no supernatural, no god. So by your argument there must no longer be any need for me to "question it." No critical thinking necessary on the subject any more, apparently.

No, because now you are making an argument that would require absolute knowledge. You only need to experience God once to know that God exists. Now to say God doesn't exist, then your experience would require you to have absolute knowledge of the universe.

Joel

HoosierGuy28 · 10-25-2002, 03:30 PM

Helen,

Quote:

It seems to me that there are many people here who no longer need to question whether Christianity is true. [Meaning, they are 100% certain it isn't, at this point]

If that's the way they feel, then so be it.

Joel

HoosierGuy28 · 10-25-2002, 03:34 PM

Mageth,

Quote:

Would they have chosen to believe it if they had heard the disclaimer? How many heard the disclaimer yet "chose" to believe it?

It required a choice rather they heard the disclaimer or not. Someone could've heard the disclaimer and took it at face value or they could've chose to believe that it was really martians trying to fool them. No matter which way you look at it, it still required a choice.

Joel

HoosierGuy28 · 10-25-2002, 03:39 PM

K,

Quote:

You could give us a demonstration by choosing not to believe this any more. That would be a much more powerful method of argument. Can you really just stop believing that all beliefs are chosen?

I could, but I choose not to. Now, you can choose whether you believe I'm going to not change my mind, or you can believe I'm trying to fool you.

Joel

kctan · 10-25-2002, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HoosierGuy28:
Mageth,
No, because now you are making an argument that would require absolute knowledge. You only need to experience God once to know that God exists. Now to say God doesn't exist, then your experience would require you to have absolute knowledge of the universe.
Joel

Why would that need absolute knowledge ? The same can be said of experiencing god. If you don't have absolute knowledge, how can you be sure that it's really god you're experiencing ? Moot point.

HoosierGuy28 · 10-25-2002, 03:44 PM

Ronin,

Quote:

Again, it may seem that way to you, However ~ Joel is presented with the reality of the universe before his very senses and yet imposes the very ludicrous and limiting myths of his religion upon it.

Actually, that would be just the opposite. I choose to embrace reality and you cling to propaganda to tell you what to believe. The difference here is I choose to think for myself and you choose to believe what skeptics tell you to believe. Of course, I'm sure you will dispute this, but as all things, time will tell. Have a nice day.

Joel

HelenM · 10-25-2002, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HoosierGuy28:
Helen:It seems to me that there are many people here who no longer need to question whether Christianity is true. [Meaning, they are 100% certain it isn't, at this point]

If that's the way they feel, then so be it.

Joel

Maybe 100% was a little high, but not much...you can read <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=45&t=001317" target="_blank">this thread</a> for more information, if you want to.

Helen

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