free12thinker

WJ

You ask "And, why take a position at all, if there is [exists] no correct one?". What you're really asking is, why take a position if there isn't an 'abolute' answer, right? Because you have gone through 13 pages, fighting for the single idea that atheism and science are no more right that chrstianity, since there is no absolute truth behind it. Well lets roll with your method of thinking and forget about this whole thread. I mean, we don't absolutely know that we are communication with each other. In fact, we don't even know if I absolutely exist, or if the words "absolutely exist" are really words. So lets not take a position on anything in life, including the 9/11 attacks, and who was right or wrong? It didn't absolutely happen right?

OKAY. I can't do this anymore. If you are going to contend that there is no use in believing in that, which is not absolute, than you really can't believe in yourself, god, me, this website, or anything else for that matter, and not having any insight, because, gulp, nothing is absolute, spells zombie with a capital Z.

WJ at his best, I guess.

brighid

WJ-

Dude – obviously you are brain dead! The question is why believe in fictional characters and build your worldview around something that does not factually exist? And why have you chosen YOUR particular and very specific TRUE God over the pantheon of Gods and Goddesses to choose from? You have obviously used some sort of knowledge (dare I say logic and reason) to make a determination between WHICH of the thousands to choose from and yet – MYSTERIOUSLY you have chosen the “faith” you have been indoctrinated in since childhood and hold to stubbornly, as if your life depended upon it. How did YOU come to this conclusion?

And I will tell you why I, personally have chosen atheism over theism – specifically the Christian theism. Not only have I found NO evidence of the existence of THIS particular God, but I have found the evidence presented for this exclusive and “TRUE” God to be utterly and completely pathetic. I would NOT date a capricious, cruel, incontinent, abusive, bull shitting, son of a bitch like your God, as He “factually” portrays Himself in the OT and the NT and the thought of worshipping something ALLEGEDLY PERFECT (do you understand the full implications of this CLAIM??) all loving, all knowing, benevolent, merciful, just, creator of all known and unknown things, who in one breath tells me He loves me so much He sent his “only son” to save me, (but already has predestined my outcome to FAILURE) and then threatens to torture me in HELL for ETERNITY if I don’t love Him back exactly the way He wants me to … Well, let’s see – can you see ANYTHING wrong with this PICTURE??? Men who tell women they love them, will do anything for them, but if you leave them or love another man they will KILL you are abusive FUCKS who have absolutely NO redeeming value. And a perfect God that does not even rise above such abusive HUMAN bullshit is NOT worthy of WORSHIP – in this realm or any other realm physical or META-physical – so there’s an ABSOLUTE for you!!!

Don’t mistake my anger for this bullshit argument as being atheistic anger and rebellion against YOUR God. It’s NOT. Your God doesn’t exist. He is a fictional character and I cannot have anger toward a fictional character – even if He is a cruel bastard. But I am so sick and tired of men (and women) trying to blow hallucinatory smoke up my ass in an attempt to obfuscate reality in a weak and feeble attempt to get me to BELIEVE in something such as THIS God! Don’t piss on me and tell me it’s raining and if your are gonna fuck me you had damn well better make me come FIRST because I am not some stupid, ignorant female who is going to BELIEVE something as utterly ridiculous and dangerous as a man or deity who loves me but will KILL me (ETERNALLY) if I don’t LOVE him back, or simply do what I am told (like be submissive and silent) because someone said, some fucking deity told me I am wretched, evil, and NEED rescuing from MYSELF (the way this alleged fucker made me)!! Are you insane??

I want and DESERVE more!

Brighid

Koyaanisqatsi

WJ, until you address my arguments point-by-point as I wrote them, we have no debate, but then that's been the truth all along.

If you want to argue solipsism, go right ahead, but it negates God absolutely.

You have a choice. Either you are the solipsist and therefore nothing but you exists or you accept that your senses are recording and interpreting information that comes from outside of your mind.

Which will it be?

You make the choice right here and now or this is over.

You're the solipsist, in which case nothing but you exists or you're not, in which case we all exist outside of your mind and therefore are subject to the cognitive tools of logic and the scientific method.

What's it going to be?

Choose.

WJ

bri/free!

I really don't understand all the anger, really. And I see that you are asking the same question that I'm asking. The reason I choose that belief system has nothing to do with the systemic apriori logic from childhood. The reason, first and foremost, is due to sentient existence which translates into the phenomenon of living and sense experience(s) from consciousness.

Again, I'm in no way selling any 'thing' in a manner for which I feel the need to confer my belief system onto others, sort of speak. I'm just making inferences based on the problems associated with essences and existence.

Existential problems.

So, I've made the leap from a metaphysical sentient existence (part of consciousness) to the concept of a metaphysical God. I suppose in a sense, you could say my belief rests in a Gnosticism and/or Fideism. But that of course is only part of the so-called puzzle/phenomenon viz. Christianity, since I too believe Jesus existed.

I guess what it comes down to is that when one is in a debate situation, you kinda have to logically pigeon-hole yourself to make a certain claim seem plausible. So I dare say too, that if it wasn't for feeling itself, there would be no existence or discussion or internet, as Free so suscinctly pointed out.

The question returns to why's someone holds a particular belief, and I think you just told me why.

Walrus

free12thinker

You said: "So I dare say too, that if it wasn't for feeling itself, there would be no existence or discussion or internet, as Free so suscinctly pointed out."

I was being sarcastic. I was merely stating that under you bridge of thought (where all the other trolls live), since nothing is absolute, than nothing is worth considering. I, of course, do not believe that this rationale is justified, or healthy for that matter.

You said: "The question returns to why's someone holds a particular belief, and I think you just told me why."

We have to separate the someone first. Someone-A believes in certain things because they have seen logic and reason work for those things, in support of those things. Someone-B believes in such things out of a stream of conscious thoughts; because they believe in such things, and since nothing is absolute, than they can justify such things that they believe in because no one can un-justify such things.

Brighid, Samhain, Free12thinker, Koy = Someone-A
Katmach(whatever), WJ, FastFalcoln = Someone-B

Koyaanisqatsi

I reiterate:

You make the choice right here and now or this is over.

You're the solipsist, in which case nothing but you exists or you're not, in which case we all exist outside of your mind and therefore are subject to the cognitive tools of logic and the scientific method.

What's it going to be?

Choose.

brighid

WJ – You say you believe Jesus existed and many here won’t dispute that it’s likely a man, around the time your this “Christ” is said to have lived was named Jesus. As a matter of fact I meet men named Jesus every single day! That is not the issue. The issue is whether or not the claims made in the Bible about this man named Jesus are true! You believe in this Jesus specifically because of your childhood indoctrination. This is why you don’t believe in any of the other virgin born, crucified savior Gods – or why you don’t a choose a better God or Goddess and frankly my dear, in the pantheon of Gods and Goddesses to choose from there are MANY possessed of better qualities then your Jesus!

So, you have used some form of “deduction” to conclude that YOU believe in THIS God, named Jesus. You have evaluated what you feel to be evidence and have EXCLUDED all other Gods and Goddesses as a possible alternative to YOUR God. And has Koy has so succinctly put, unless you believe ONLY you exist you have to throw this other argument right in the trash – unless of course you can accept being dishonest with yourself.

Now, we don’t care what God YOU believe in, or what God any one believes in for that matter. It makes absolutely NO difference to me, BUT as Christianity has historically demonstrated IT cannot keep from imposing this belief on EVERYONE else and there in is where the anger for the atheist (or non-Christian theist) grows from. In order for Christianity to survive it most impose its belief system upon others and evangelism and prosyletization are corner stones of this “faith.” Bring the “Good News” to every one so they may be “saved!” And if they do not willingly convert to a belief in OUR deity, then force them to by whatever means necessary. Combating the irrational nature of the belief in the Christian deity is necessary for the freedom of ALL people – including the Christian. Furthermore, you have spent an inordinate amount of time, energy and used your quip, little sayings to attempt to render the position of atheism as some sort of illogical joke, the rebellious antics of childish imbeciles, or something simply ludicrous. And yet you wonder why we might be angry at such arguments?? This must be an important issue to you personally, or why else would you come to the house of the Infidel to notify us of our wayward thoughts and our illogical conclusions? What purpose do you have debating your position here?

So, it is time for you to prove up your case about Jesus. You believe in Him and only Him over all other Gods. You have used some form of evaluation to come to this conclusion, but you have thus far been unwilling to admit that it is because of your societal indoctrination. You disbelieve in all other Gods, but fail to understand why we fail to include YOUR God in that same list! If you can’t prove up your case, beyond a shadow of a doubt (as anything else will entail your loss of life and liberty ETERNALLY) then you are without adequate “evidence” to shape your worldview and condemn others who don’t share that view. If you cannot KNOW your God, but can only BELIEVE and have FAITH that THIS ONE is real – I feel sorry for you and all others like you. If believing in such fairy tales helps you sleep better at night, great – but please refrain from coming into our house, disparaging our character and thoughts and expect anything less then a frosty reception. NOW, if you HAVE some evidence that holds to that high standard required for extra ordinary claims PLEASE share it with all of us so we may examine it. If you don’t then feel free to continue here, but abide by the rules of logic and debate. If you are afraid to truly delve into the implications of the information provided here, then you should spend sometime reflecting inward and examining your own claims.

Theist forums are going to be much easier on you and they aren’t going to challenge you to higher heights and will likely indulge your comfortable platitudes. To each their own! So either shit or get off the pot! If you aren’t capable of addressing the arguments presented here point by point then acknowledge such.

Brighid

free12thinker

Bri-
I love the anger--especially since this supposed God is supposed to be an all loving god and yet--he gives women intelligence and strength and all of that jazz--only to tell them to sit back and watch. The whole submissive thing ticks me off to no end, and when people wrote that into the bible--they did it for a reason. It benefits men.

One of the things I love to point out to Christians (especially those who argue that women are happy in their roles), is the large use of painkillers and anti-depressent by housewives, especially in the 1950's after women were brought back home from working for the good ol' USA (read:sarcasm), after finally being able to put their smarts and ambitions to work. Christians are so naive in assuming that women want to be submissive and belittled and all that jazz.

But...this is probably a topic best suited for another thread.

Koyaanisqatsi

I reiterate:

You make the choice right here and now or this is over.

You're the solipsist, in which case nothing but you exists or you're not, in which case we all exist outside of your mind and therefore are subject to the cognitive tools of logic and the scientific method.

What's it going to be?

Choose.

Darwin's Finch

WJ: Answer Koy, damnit!