The Lone Ranger

With respect, you believe, you do not know.

I have spent the night in "haunted" houses, and I've never seen or heard anything that didn't turn out to have a perfectly prosaic explanation.

For example, one room in one of the campus buildings when I was in college was supposed to be haunted. Many people had reported seeing a ghostly figure in that room late at night.

I went into that room late one night -- and there it was! -- a glowing figure on the wall, shimmering vaguely. It looked very much like the figure of a woman wearing a shroud of some sort.

Naturally, being the curious person that I am, I walked up to it to investigate. After a few minutes, I discovered that there was a small crack in one of the leaded windows, and that when the moon was at the proper angle, it created the illusion of a woman-shaped figure on the wall.

***

I worked as a security guard as an undergraduate, which is why I spent so much time in old buildings after dark.

Another building that was "haunted" on campus had several security guards so spooked that they wouldn't even enter it at night. When the building was locked in the evening, the elevator was locked on the top floor, so that if anyone got into the building, they couldn't take the elevator to the top floors where the important records were kept (all the stairwells were locked as well.)

Several guards had reported that after locking this building, they'd heard the elevator start up, which was supposed to be impossible. As a result, several refused to even enter the building after dark.

One night, I was locking up the building. I locked the elevator on the top floor, and proceeded to lock all the stairwell doors. As I was making my way down the stairwell, I heard the elevator start up!

Naturally, I ran down the stairwell to see what the heck was going on. I arrived at the ground floor just as the elevator did, and waited for it to open. When it opened, I confronted a rather surprised janitor. It turned out that he had (against regulations) used his keys to enter the building, then decided to unlock the elevator and ride it down, rather than having to unlock all those stairwell doors.

I suspect that most, if not all ghost sightings have similarly prosaic explanations.

Cheers,

Michael

sweep

if I had baked beans for tea that evening, the only noises you would be investigating would have been made by my bottom.

But seriously, some places involve physical trauma. One of my mates has been involved in a 'haunted' sleepover and something tried to strangle him in his sleep. He won't be doing that again. Although a lot of events can be staged for publicity there are very real unpleasant occurences.

[ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: sweep ]</p>

Amie

Hi Michael

I have often wondered that as well, about the picture however I think if I saw a ghost, I am not so sure my first inclination would be to take a picture. I think i would be rather shocked a bit.
However I am inclined to think if somebody claims to have seen a ghost and then showed what they said was the picture of a ghost, people would still be hesitant to believe it...

sometimes it seems for those who believe no explanation is necessary, for those who don't believe no explanation is possible...

sweep

Alright, Perhaps you're one of the rare ones that doesn't get spooked no matter what. You big tough guy! guess I must be a wuss

Respect back, you believe you've spent your nights in a haunted house, but not the kind that I'm talking about.

The Lone Ranger

But people should be hesistant to accept such claims. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

If ghosts do exist, it really shouldn't be difficult to prove it. Why is it, then, that mediums who are supposedly in contact with spirits can never seem to provide details of that person's life that the medium him/herself wouldn't know, for instance? (For example, why can't Einstein's "ghost" answer math questions that he shouldn't have any difficulty with?)

Why do ghosts always seem to vanish whenever a skeptical person appears, especially if that person has a camera and tape recorder handy? Why are the critters so shy?

If ghosts did exist, it would be quite easy to prove it. Just find one ghost who'll cooperate, and have it materialize in the headquarters of the James Randi Educational Foundation and take questions. That would immediately settle the issue.

Cheers,

Michael

Infinity Lover

Is there more you can tell about that mate? I'm curious.

(perhaps we should be sitting around a campfire, making smoars )

Seraphim

"Actually science is only attempting to describe a single objective reality which is appropriate to us all. Whenever an individual presents a subjective case differing from that scientific model, without objective proof, the model must remain firm. "

My reply : Is there such thing as a "Single Objective Reality"? I don't believe that ALL humans are born equals simply because how they behave is greatly depends on their interaction with their surroundings as they grow up as well. In another word, your parents don't make who you are, you make it yourself. In that context, is there a real "Single Objective Reality"?

Does ALL brains work in the same way? Does ALL drugs injected into someone works in the same way as well? Take Penisilen and Antibiotic for example, I believe there are some who are allegic to it while it cures others.

"Fear of the unknown used to cause the automatic institutionalisation of mental illness. I’d like to think that recent decades are seeing a new enlightenment towards this thinking. Intolerance of difference is closely tied to tribalism & is another innate part of the human psyche. "

My reply : Man ... your understanding about Humanity is limited to what you seems to know only. You think Science changed anything?

Science bring new ways and method to explain things and judge others (especially those who are less unfortunate than others). This alone IS considered as Intolerance of difference by itself. Psychologists (among others) simply consider that what they know is better than those who experience it firsthand, thus their knowledge simply serves to undermine someone else's feeling and experience. It is not much difference between a psychologists and a high priest.

"OTOH, religion’s relationship with mental illness has been quite diverse. On occasion burning victims as witches, on other occasions sanctifying them as visionaries or sharmen. Indeed altered states of consciousness feature heavily in many animistic religions. "

My reply : And what makes today's leaders so different from this "visionaries"? Both follow their own vision (except in Shamen's point of view, it deals with forseeing etc) thus used to lead others.

"All science does is describe the physical mechanisms by which these phenomena occur. Problems only occur when people need to decide what is actually right or not, whether an individual actually needs to be treated or not. "

My reply : And YET this mechanism is the one been used to undermine a person and judge him or her to be a freak or not. People who have less understanding on this mechanism do not bother about such facts (that they do not know everything about it) yet undermine others as if they know everything. How many of you know fully about what Frued or others had pointed out?

"Speaking from the Australian context, really treatment depends largely on how well the individual can function in society. Harmless schizonphrenics are definitely in the majority. Some voluntarily undertake treatment, many choose not to. As long as their behaviour remains purely eccentric rather than directly harmful, they generally seem to be accepted here. Not necessarily with open arms (there is naturally an inherent fear of behaviour which we do not understand), but there is generally minimal coercion to force them into treatment as compared with 2 or 3 decades ago where institutionalisation was the unfortunate norm. Unfortunately a small proportion of schizophrenics are considered violent & as such there seems little choice but to retain these individuals in institutions. "

My reply : Speaking from Australian context as well, what is your point of view about the Aborgines of Australia? I believe they also regard such events such as OBE/NDE or Astral Projection with a high regards? I read about it somewhere some time ago ... is it true?

How do you judge them who are following methods/ways which they followed for hundreds of years - which include belief in Animastic?

"My association of visions with schizophrenia comes in an open & honest discussion over the “true” nature of reality. If one person is to assert to me the objective existence of ghosts because of personal experience, then the next will tell me to become a Catholic because the Holy Mother told them to, and the one after will tell me that the aliens who abducted him are going to blow up the world next Friday. "

My reply : You have your opinion, I have mind. I know what to believe despite of what they may say. Afterall, IF the Earth gets blows up this Friday, at least we know he was telling the truth

"I agree with you on this Seraphim. I've seen an angel and I am completely sane and serious. I know what I saw
can I get some water to douse the flames that may be coming my way "

My reply : Seen an Angel? That's a new one. Sure it is not just a dream?
You don't need water, just a lot of patience to listen to others curse you ... I could know, I been called a loony since my teen (since about 16).

The Lone Ranger

Well, no, I don't get spooked. A friend of mine (when I was a security guard) once said of me, "If a ghost materialized in front of you and said 'Boo!', you'd demand to see its ID, and if it couldn't produce one, you'd throw it out of the building."

It's not because I'm some kind of "manly man" or any such thing, though; it's apparently just the way that I'm wired.

In any event, I've never really understood why people would find "ghosts" frightening, even if they did exist. If I actually encountered one, I'd be too busy asking it questions to be frightened. Besides, the dead don't frighten me in the least. It's the living you have to worry about.

Quote:

Respect back, you believe you've spent your nights in a haunted house, but not the kind that I'm talking about.

Actually, I don't believe that I've ever spent the night in a haunted house. I don't believe that anyone has*. I have spent the night in quite a few buildings that other people believed to be haunted, though.

Cheers,

Michael

*Lack of belief is not the same thing as disbelief, by the way.

Seraphim

"No offence Amie, but Seraphim, you see what I mean ?

I mean OK, Amie’s not asking me to convert to Catholicism (at least I don’t think so), but I’m sure you get the gist. Ghosts, angels, the entity I fear the most is still the alien proctologist. Please no one claim an encounter of the First Kind with one of those. Hell it’s only a trailer park to everyone else, but to me it’s home."

My reply : Frankly speaking, No I don't see what is the matter here.

Amie felt he had seen an Angel and despite of feeling doubt myself, I respect his experience as his own. Why is it that his experience seems to disturb you?

When I said I have experience things like Astral projections and NDE/OBE, that is my own experience. If you do not have such, that there is nothing wrong in it. Each person grows by his or her own experience and should be respected for that. It is only when a person start going out to preach etc (disrespect to other's privacy) when such things should be dealt with. And I don't think Amie here wants to convert you or anyone else.

Amie

yes people should. Damn its too bad subjective experiences could not count for proof

I don't know Michael (I feel like I say that so much here I hope it does not make me seem like a complete dumbass)
however it seems that some mediums do come up with correct information "spirits"

I wish I had complete understanding on the subject of parapsychology. Have you researched any "documented" events regarding ghosts?

Lone Ranger they need someone like you to tag along with a parapsychology team

[ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: Amie ]</p>