Volker.Doormann

No. I have translated some words from the Hebrew Genesis and have given arguments to my understanding of them. This can be discussed on the subjects.
I do not see, what this skepticism shell prove. The myths written down in the Pentateuch could be understand in it's spiritual meaning without any synthetic theory, and because of this the modifications are made can be fixed too.

The bible is a mirror of human character - from crime to genius and god realization, all can be found.

Volker

Baidarka

Volker
You wrote
”I do not see, what this skepticism shell prove. The myths written down in the Pentateuch could be understand in it's spiritual meaning without any synthetic theory, and because of this the modifications are made can be fixed too.”
I am a skeptic I need proof to believe farfetched religious claims. If we find JC in the OT or if we are reading Monotheism into Polytheistic texts then we are not reading things correctly.

then you wrote
”The bible is a mirror of human character - from crime to genius and god realization, all can be found. “

Yes it is but it is also a political work used by Kings to justify their power. It is a jingoistic work which contains biting racist attacks on Israel’s enemies. Successful religions are very often political whores that sell their services to the rich and powerful.
The point is that when we watch the news on TV we must notice who is paying for the advertisements if we want to understand who might be putting pressure on the news to keep the truth from us.
Who wrote the Bible and who paid them to do it?
Yes Michael Angelo was a great Artist and the Sistine Chapel is a wonderful work but who paid for it? What is its function?

Volker.Doormann

I do not have claimed to read something into the text, I have said, that the myths could be understand without theory. To discuss the text of the OT on the level of Monotheism theories versus Polytheism is pure theoretical.

I have given - I repeat - some arguments to prove about some relation in genesis. But you do not pay attention to that. It is a different, whether one creates a theory about polytheism or one is arguing about existing proofs. As well as the god of the Hindu trinity Shiva is taken from the Jews 4000 years ago from the Indian Vedas and have worshiped Shiva as the Hebrew god YHWH = I (Y) am HWH (the life) = 'Chavvah = { khav-vaw }' , same is also with the god Brahm from the Hindu trinity with his wife and sister Sarasvati, and is taken as ABrahm and Sara from the Jews 4000 years ago from the Indian Vedas. The ritual to 'clean' a soul from it's 'dirt' as it is known from NT stories is taken from the Indian law code of Manu called the 'Manusmriti' doormann.org/manuslaw.txt from about 2000 to 1500 BCE, were, we can read in II 60: "Let him (the twiceborn) first sip water thrice; next twice wipe his mouth; and, lastly, touch with water the cavities (of the head), (the seat of) the soul and the head."

Pentateuch is not a synthetic created text only to claim power. One can find simple stories illuminating the very individual state of the human soul in symbols, figures and pictures. Sure, the try to hide the astrological roots of the Jews through the change of the twelve spiritual houses called the twelve houses of IsraEl, into a secular claim into a genealogical root as the twelve tribes of Israel, was the greatest crime ever (s. abrahamitic religions reality today). But it is up to us to solve this in detail by arguments; Skepticism or fighting with theories never can do this.
Religion is the inner way of the soul back to it's spiritual home. It has in no way ever a meaning in this physical world. If you know the teaching of Jesus, then you know that. Exact the claim of secular power from religious scholars to suppress individuals with social rules is an invertation of the true meaning of 'religion' and it is an abuse of that, what is religion in origin meaning.

But - no one ever must be a slave of this social power. Each one is free to release himself from that slavery as soul. If one is free from something, then he is also free from any interference with that something. It needs only the individual consciousness to be. This is dramatized p.e. in that gospels myths for seekers of 'freedom from'. It is mostly irrelevant which person in what house, in what room that text has written or if there are historical land marks of proof. Who cares whether Plato or Socrates has stated some very good logic argumenst?

Volker

Baidarka

Volker

You seem to be reading your own spiritual feelings into the Biblical writings. This is something akin to anthropomorphism. Bottlenose dolphins have mouths that are always turned up on the ends like a smile but this is not an expression of emotion it is simply the shape of their mouths yet most people assume that these are happy smiling animals even when they are angry. Bible Judaism is very much of this material world and very much not about abstract spirituality. The NT Jesus other worldly stance (no wife, no children, celibate) makes his story set in a Jewish milieu seem quite improbable, it is doubtful that he would have had any Jewish followers at all.
Religions like living things go through an evolutionary process. Unsuccessful religions die off quickly. Charismatic religions which were not prudent enough to seek the protection of kings were very often persecuted out of existence. Christianity really took off and became powerful after it gained a Roman emperor as a patron.
Most religions violently vie for power over the hearts and minds of people. They write blessings for kings into their liturgy. They perform anointing ceremonies to officially prove that God’s power is behind the King’s power.
I agree that many religions express beautiful and deep spiritual thoughts, but you seem to allow this to blind you to the fact that religions purchase property, pay salaries, publish books, buy time on TV, and invest in the stock market. The truly spiritual religions which keep themselves pure and ignore physical reality quickly disappear and are never heard from again.
If you truly want to understand successful religions “follow the money”. I’m not saying that this is all that religion is about but it is a very important element that can not be ignored if you really want to understand a religion.

“Sure, the try to hide the astrological roots of the Jews through the change of the twelve spiritual houses called the twelve houses of IsraEl, into a secular claim into a genealogical root as the twelve tribes of Israel, was the greatest crime ever (s. abrahamitic religions reality today).”

I agree that the 12 tribes probably originally were symbolic of some sort of ancient astrology, but what does “astrological roots of the Jews” mean? What crime are you referring to?

“It is mostly irrelevant which person in what house, in what room that text has written or if there are historical land marks of proof.”


Why is it irrelevant? It is of the utmost relevance. If we want to understand a document that is social or political (as the bible is) we must understand the milieu that produced the document.

“Who cares whether Plato or Socrates has stated some very good logic argumenst?”

I care and everyone who is interested in the evolution of western civilization cares.

We seem to be getting way off topic after all this was supposed to be a discussion about space aliens in Genesis. Perhaps we should start a new thread about the Political vs Spiritual motivation behind the Bible.

Volker.Doormann

Originally posted by Baidarka
Volker
You seem to be reading your own spiritual feelings into the Biblical writings.

No.

Bottlenose dolphins have mouths that are always turned up on the ends like a smile but this is not an expression of emotion it is simply the shape of their mouths yet most people assume that these are happy smiling animals even when they are angry.

You are teaching the world, that this can be encoded.

Bible Judaism is very much of this material world and very much not about abstract spirituality.

It is simple an opinion.

The NT Jesus other worldly stance (no wife, no children, celibate) makes his story set in a Jewish milieu seem quite improbable, it is doubtful that he would have had any Jewish followers at all.

No one need a person to understand the parables of the gospels.

Religions like living things go through an evolutionary process.

I think not. Truth and harmony depending not on time.

Unsuccessful religions die off quickly.

Nobody knows why he is here. Nobody who is arguing, knows, where he was prior to his birth. That, what is taken as success, also can be a mistake. Who knows? The commandment from a religion "Day and night woman must be kept in dependence by the males of their families, and, if they attach themselves to sensual enjoyments, they must be kept under one's control. Her father protects her in childhood, her husband protects her in youth, and her sons protect her in old age; a woman is never fit for independence." is given some 4000 years ago. Is that a success?

I agree that many religions express beautiful and deep spiritual thoughts, but you seem to allow this to blind you to the fact that religions purchase property, pay salaries, publish books, buy time on TV, and invest in the stock market.

I am sure you take no money for your work.

The truly spiritual religions which keep themselves pure and ignore physical reality quickly disappear and are never heard from again.

I am sure you have heard from them.

Volker: “Sure, the try to hide the astrological roots of the Jews through the change of the twelve spiritual houses called the twelve houses of IsraEl, into a secular claim into a genealogical root as the twelve tribes of Israel, was the greatest crime ever (s. abrahamitic religions reality today).”

I agree that the 12 tribes probably originally were symbolic of some sort of ancient astrology, but what does “astrological roots of the Jews” mean? What crime are you referring to?

The twelve astrological houses as they are always aligned to each location in the four quadrants of the space, were known by the Jews as it is written in Numbers 24: "And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes" How do need the Jews a man as Balaam to look for twelve subjects with lifting eyes? What was the profession of Balaam? Why there is an alignment in the OT, that directs the four times three = twelve 'tribes' to sky directions? Why are the Hebrew names of the twelve sons of Israel loaded with astrology specific attributes?

Jews have worship the moon. Especially the crescending moon before sunrise in the east (=orient). This shape of the crescending moon is equal to the horns of a bull. That, what the people with Moses worship, was not a bull it was the moon. doormann.org/the0.htm Until today it is claimed, that the tribes of Israel got their physical country from god. But it was only the knowledge about the twelve spiritual astrological houses, which was perceived as knowledge, and this knowledge is not to be fixed to a nation. If you look in your TV, and perceive the effect of this secular claim as Genealogy from this crime, then you may know what I mean.
People can learn, that this was only a mad desinfromation to claim the secular power and can stop their war! It is no secret in Jewish mysticism, that the twelve tribes of Israel are in origin were the twelve astrological houses, but as you would say no one have heard from this pure spiritual understanding.

Volker: “It is mostly irrelevant which person in what house, in what room that text has written or if there are historical land marks of proof.”

Why is it irrelevant? It is of the utmost relevance. If we want to understand a document that is social or political (as the bible is) we must understand the milieu that produced the document.

“Who cares whether Plato or Socrates has stated some very good logic argument?”

I care and everyone who is interested in the evolution of western civilization cares.

Truth depends not from persons. Personal cult starts with that.

We seem to be getting way off topic after all this was supposed to be a discussion about space aliens in Genesis. Perhaps we should start a new thread about the Political vs Spiritual motivation behind the Bible.

We will see. Thank you.

Volker

Sunfair

To try to get back to the topic at hand--

I seem to recall reading of an inscription found recently (the last year or so) that mentions "Jehovah and his Asherah." Speculation was that it dated from a time when the enemy of Jehovah, the pagan goddess Asherah, was actually his consort/wife.

I thought it was interesting. Sorry I can't recall where I came across it, but perhaps somebody else has heard of this?

BioBeing

Just to get back to the title of the thread - anyone remember the Raelians?