Freethought & Rationalism Archive

yguy · 05-29-2003, 07:57 AM

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Originally posted by keyser_soze
Occams razor cuts deeply, especially into religions fatty tumor. You want to have things both ways. You want to have an irrational belief system unsupported by reality, or common sense, or even physics. Against all of the world, every other religion's own irrational god systems...

And inside this bubble, you want to have irrational beliefs that ARE CONTRARY to the book (which is the only evidence of your faith) that you rely on.

I don't know where you got the idea I "rely on" the Bible, but I don't. I just believe it to be mostly true.

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You want to believe god doesn't change his mind. But when verses from YOUR VERY OWN GOD BOOK are used to show that he does(for the sake of argument) you not only ignore it, but make leaps of reasoning that would break the back of the average acrobat, to conclude--despite the very obvious and plain information supplied--that god does not change his mind. I'm sorry, it's rather obvious, even to a dimwit I'd bet(as long as it's not a fundy dimwit) that it MEANS WHAT IT SAYS!

Tell me, do you think Job REALLY washed his steps with butter? Or was that just a flowery way of saying he was filthy rich? Do you think God REALLY kills people for urinating against walls, or did that just mean He was going to kill all the males?

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What planet do you come from that you can turn "Bob is a dog" into "Bob is really a cat, but he underwent an operation in Istanbul to become a wolf...which is close to a dog, but you're wrong because it's a different species". That is exactly what apologetics looks like to everyone, like backpedaling and making stuff up to suit your fancy.

These accounts are pretty much skeletal, and not intended, IMO, to satisfy the guys in Legal, if you get my drift. Therefore, they are easily assailable on technical grounds. If we were to take certain passages at face value, we could only conclude that God either does not exist, or that He is the devil. I know the first possibility to be false, and the second is patently absurd, so to the degree that my mind is able to plausibly "flesh out" the details, I allow it to, though I am always ready to reconsider when sufficient contrary evidence is provided. No one here has done that.

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It's intellectually dishonest, primarily with yourself...which is the hardest thing of all to understand. Apologetics absolutely boggles the rational mind, and then you smile and act like you're innocent of any wrong doing,

If I'm doing anything wrong by stating how things look to me, I can't imagine how.

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that you are of course "reading it right" when every single piece of data contradicts what you believe! Would you stand in the road with a a truck approaching you and ignore it's presence? Then why would you ignore the mountain of evidence to to the contrary of your position?

There is no such mountain. There is only your massive egoism which, having come to an expedient conclusion years ago, dares not see things in a different light. You've got too much invested.

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Why would you look at all the evidence in the world, what your eyes tell you, what your rational mind tells you, and then close your eyes to it on the authority of a poorly written book that is badly designed

No book could ever be written which would give you what you say you want.

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and for the love of whatever deity, WAS WRITTEN BY IRON AGE GOATHERDERS? What lapse in reasoning allows this travesty to take place?:banghead: :banghead:

Why should my irrationality - since that's what you think it is - bother you? Yours doesn't bother me.

yguy · 05-29-2003, 08:36 AM

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Originally posted by Mageth
But there is nothing indicating that He intended to kill innocents in the first place.

Gen 19:25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

I would imagine there were a lot of children, even infants, killed in those cities. Were they not innocents?

We have no way of knowing. If they were, however, they're in a better place, I'm sure.

Mageth · 05-29-2003, 08:58 AM

We have no way of knowing. If they were, however, they're in a better place, I'm sure.

Then why aren't Christians out killing kids to send them to a better place? Oh, never mind, that would be wrong, wouldn't it?

keyser_soze · 05-29-2003, 09:04 AM

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Originally posted by yguy
I don't know where you got the idea I "rely on" the Bible, but I don't. I just believe it to be mostly true.

Emphasis mine.....how do you determine which parts are mostly true?

Tell me, do you think Job REALLY washed his steps with butter? Or was that just a flowery way of saying he was filthy rich? Do you think God REALLY kills people for urinating against walls, or did that just mean He was going to kill all the males?

I'm well aware of literary devices, but the use of this excuse, despite it's lack of fitting in context(show me where it looked like it was being used in the verse you are defending) is the most pathetic thing I have ever seen. Apologists use this when all else fails..."Well, it didn't REALLY mean that..."

These accounts are pretty much skeletal, and not intended, IMO, to satisfy the guys in Legal, if you get my drift. Therefore, they are easily assailable on technical grounds. If we were to take certain passages at face value, we could only conclude that God either does not exist, or that He is the devil. I know the first possibility to be false, and the second is patently absurd, so to the degree that my mind is able to plausibly "flesh out" the details, I allow it to, though I am always ready to reconsider when sufficient contrary evidence is provided. No one here has done that.

Well, you almost had it...but it's far more innocent than that. The truth is that a bunch of goatherders made a religion to explain what they did not understand. Just like the egyptians, the phoenicians, the russians, the greeks, the romans, the chinese, the japanase, the indians, the--well, you get the picture

If I'm doing anything wrong by stating how things look to me, I can't imagine how.

I really don't mind you being intellectually dishonest to me. I mean it. I feel for you, because I was once there. But I swear it feels like I'm hitting my head against an iron plated brick wall when I see someone ignore FACTS, and convolute the laws of the universe, so that they can maintain their state of mind...to keep it enslaved to an archaic notion. which MOST PARTS are true? If one part is false, then that opens the door to all of it being untrue! Don't you see that is the reason you fight so hard, make such complicated and absurd plot twists to insure that NO PART of it is in error...so that door isn't open the tiniest little bit. If even a crack of light falls on the bible, then it's all over. That's how it is for most of us, that little crack let us see past what we were told all of our lives.

There is no such mountain. There is only your massive egoism which, having come to an expedient conclusion years ago, dares not see things in a different light. You've got too much invested.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I saw that different light for a long time. Most of us here did! Why can you not understand? WE WERE CHRISTIANS! Well, a lot of us anyway, probably the majority, truth be told. But we refused, at some point, to lie to ourselves any more. And when you are out of it, for the first while, you sit there incredulous that you could have been so utterly stupid...To throw reason, common sense..whatever...to throw it right out the damned window! Do you know how stupid that makes you feel? It is quite possibly one of the most embarrassing moments in your life. And then it only gets worse, because you see people all around you living in that delusional state...Ignoring facts, twisting perception so that they can stay in that state. And it reminds you, EVERYTIME, of how gullible you were, how devoid of your will you were.

No book could ever be written which would give you what you say you want.

But that's just it...I don't want anything! I don't need anything. I realize that I am responsible for my life, that I must choose to be happy or sad, to take what life throws at me and deal with it. And it is EASY. It is so much easier after you open your eyes that you wouldn't believe it. But you are a long way from that...Stay in your comfortable state--but wait, it's not really comfortable is it? It's actually kind of restrictive, because you can't REALLY open your eyes too far, you can't hear TOO much, before the fear sets in, the kind of crawling anxiety that makes you nervous about everything. See, I was there...and it sucks. And there is no way in the world I would trade back for what you have.

Why should my irrationality - since that's what you think it is - bother you? Yours doesn't bother me.

Only what you are doing to yourself bothers me. I am embarrassed FOR you.

keyser_soze · 05-29-2003, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by yguy
We have no way of knowing. If they were, however, they're in a better place, I'm sure.

Are you sure it's not a literary device? No? It's not. But the fact that your god killed women, children and infants doesn't bother you does it? But don't you think it should? The fact that it doesn't....doesn't that even bother you the least little bit. If someone came up to you and told you the exact same story, but stated that it was the god Vishnu that killed them...Would you feel the same way? Too me, it would seem bloody, and dirty, and foul, and criminal. But, you would just say it's a story, not real LIKE YOUR GOD. Because, your god has so MUCH more evidence to support it right?

yguy · 05-29-2003, 10:41 AM

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Emphasis mine.....how do you determine which parts are mostly true?

Don't know if I can tell you that. Some passages just hit home.

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I'm well aware of literary devices, but the use of this excuse, despite it's lack of fitting in context(show me where it looked like it was being used in the verse you are defending) is the most pathetic thing I have ever seen. Apologists use this when all else fails..."Well, it didn't REALLY mean that..."

Obviously not all superficial discrepancies are literary devices. The point is, I knew the literal meaning of those passages was nonsensical when I saw them, and nobody told me what the real meaning was. After I saw that they couldn't mean exactly what they said, the answer came.

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Well, you almost had it...but it's far more innocent than that. The truth is that a bunch of goatherders made a religion to explain what they did not understand. Just like the egyptians, the phoenicians, the russians, the greeks, the romans, the chinese, the japanase, the indians, the--well, you get the picture

There's an original thought.

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I really don't mind you being intellectually dishonest to me. I mean it. I feel for you, because I was once there.

Hey - I was once where you are intellectually, and I haven't the slightest sympathy for you.

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But I swear it feels like I'm hitting my head against an iron plated brick wall when I see someone ignore FACTS, and convolute the laws of the universe, so that they can maintain their state of mind...to keep it enslaved to an archaic notion. which MOST PARTS are true? If one part is false, then that opens the door to all of it being untrue!

This is supposed to be news?

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Don't you see that is the reason you fight so hard, make such complicated and absurd plot twists to insure that NO PART of it is in error...so that door isn't open the tiniest little bit.

Obviously you missed my exchange with Evangelion regarding the daughter of Jephthah.

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Sorry to burst your bubble, but I saw that different light for a long time. Most of us here did! Why can you not understand? WE WERE CHRISTIANS!

Not likely. I thought I was one for a few months in my early 20's, but it's a claim I'll never make falsely again.

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Well, a lot of us anyway, probably the majority, truth be told. But we refused, at some point, to lie to ourselves any more. And when you are out of it, for the first while, you sit there incredulous that you could have been so utterly stupid...To throw reason, common sense..whatever...to throw it right out the damned window! Do you know how stupid that makes you feel? It is quite possibly one of the most embarrassing moments in your life. And then it only gets worse, because you see people all around you living in that delusional state...Ignoring facts, twisting perception so that they can stay in that state. And it reminds you, EVERYTIME, of how gullible you were, how devoid of your will you were.

I know the feeling, as I experienced it when I started to see how preposterous atheism was.

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Only what you are doing to yourself bothers me. I am embarrassed FOR you.

You ought to know by now that such compassionate sentiments are utterly wasted on those with no shame.

Fr.Andrew · 05-29-2003, 10:45 AM

(yguy): But there is nothing indicating that He intended to kill innocents in the first place.
(Fr Andrew): You mean other than the ten verses in Genesis devoted to the story of Abraham bargaining Him out of doing so, step by step? You do understand how "the righteous" is used in this passage, don't you? They're the innocents.

(yguy): In fact, the first indication God intended to destroy S&G comes from Abraham, not God.
(Fr Andrew): And where do you suppose he got that notion?

(yguy): This idea that there was any negotiation going on is totally unsupported.
(Fr Andrew): No, it's pretty well supported by an honest reading of scripture. What's unsupported are the amateur apologetics you offer based on what's "in your mind".

Fr.Andrew · 05-29-2003, 10:49 AM

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Originally posted by Mageth
We have no way of knowing. If they were, however, they're in a better place, I'm sure.

Then why aren't Christians out killing kids to send them to a better place? Oh, never mind, that would be wrong, wouldn't it?

(Fr Andrew): I've wondered about that myself. If fundamentalist Christians are sure that dead innocents go to a better place, why do they oppose abortion?

yguy · 05-29-2003, 10:56 AM

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Originally posted by Fr.Andrew
(yguy): But there is nothing indicating that He intended to kill innocents in the first place.
(Fr Andrew): You mean other than the ten verses in Genesis devoted to the story of Abraham bargaining Him out of doing so, step by step?

They don't indicate any such intention, they only indicate that Abraham THOUGHT He might have such an intention.

And drop the bargaining angle already - it's a water balloon in a machine gun fight.

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(yguy): In fact, the first indication God intended to destroy S&G comes from Abraham, not God.
(Fr Andrew): And where do you suppose he got that notion?

My guess would be the devil. How about you?

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(yguy): This idea that there was any negotiation going on is totally unsupported.
(Fr Andrew): No, it's pretty well supported by an honest reading of scripture.

Then I guess you and I have rather different ideas about what constitutes an honest reading of scripture.

yguy · 05-29-2003, 10:58 AM

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Originally posted by Fr.Andrew
(Fr Andrew): I've wondered about that myself. If fundamentalist Christians are sure that dead innocents go to a better place, why do they oppose abortion?

Because there's a commandment against murder?

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05-29-2003, 08:58 AM	#93
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	We have no way of knowing. If they were, however, they're in a better place, I'm sure. Then why aren't Christians out killing kids to send them to a better place? Oh, never mind, that would be wrong, wouldn't it?

05-29-2003, 10:45 AM	#97
Fr.Andrew Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Betsy's Bluff, Maine Posts: 540	(yguy): But there is nothing indicating that He intended to kill innocents in the first place. (Fr Andrew): You mean other than the ten verses in Genesis devoted to the story of Abraham bargaining Him out of doing so, step by step? You do understand how "the righteous" is used in this passage, don't you? They're the innocents. (yguy): In fact, the first indication God intended to destroy S&G comes from Abraham, not God. (Fr Andrew): And where do you suppose he got that notion? (yguy): This idea that there was any negotiation going on is totally unsupported. (Fr Andrew): No, it's pretty well supported by an honest reading of scripture. What's unsupported are the amateur apologetics you offer based on what's "in your mind".

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