pescifish

Exactly!
I felt this way and "fought" against that sort of thinking even during the periods of my life when I'd been involved in religious groups and activities. I believe personal examination and understanding one's own place in this universe (one of the possible benefits of personal spirituality) is very important, but I do think that a lot of evil is done in this world in the name of organized religions.

The "fight" against fundamentalist frenzy and oppressive religious concepts pervading our government is one I make standing side-by-side with theists who also think it is and should be a personal choice.

Mad Kally

Forget this universe, when I die I'm going to Disney universe!

Zippy

</strong>

It is pretty much required of an atheist that he/she believe religious people are deluded. If not deluded, what are they? An atheist cannot hold that religious beliefs are true. Delusion is the only word I can find that fits.

I often find that religious belief comes about as a result of ignorance - ignorance of the 'laws of nature', ignorance of evolution, ignorance of the knowledge and ideas that beyond the narrow scope of their religious community. I don't mean it as an insult, though of course the words do hold insulting connotations which I can do little about.

</strong>

Well, sadly that's true. Please don't think I am having a go at you - you could be a very nice person for all I know - but to my mind, you are sorely deluded. And of course, it follows that you think that I am deluded also.

</strong>

First of all, your 'truth' has no basis in fact and is therefore not 'truth' by any proper definition of the world.

Secondly, I am not calling YOU a deluded brainwashed half-wit, and I do not claim that you are hell-bend on our extinction. I was pointing to the extremes that exist in the religious community.

</strong>

Indeed I am. I'm going to do my best to ensure that the educational system in my country does not let people down. Education is the best weapon we have against religion. I am not proposing that religion be outlawed, or that religious people be discriminated against. I have confidence that if people are shown the true facts, they will make the correct decision by their own accord.



Paul

Zippy

</strong>
Condescending attitude noted.
</strong>

Religion is the cause of war, terrorism, death and destruction on an almost unbelievable scale. And it's not harmful to society?

You make an argument but provide no evidence to back it up. Religion is evil, because it is ignorance. And ignorance is evil.

Paul

Zippy

Could you possibly clarify the above statement? How can a lack of understanding (I hesitate to use the word 'ignorance' in case I offend any friendly Christians who may be passing) possibly be beneficial to society as a whole?

Paul

[ July 22, 2002: Message edited by: Zippy ]</p>

DMB

Well Brian63, I seem to have moved in the opposite direction to yours.

40 years ago, I was an atheist but largely unbothered by religion. But about 12 years ago I began to realise how many of the things I cared about were adversely affected by religion. As time goes by, I see less and less merit in religion, and much demerit. So please don't assume that everyone will follow your path.

Although who knows? If god grants me another 40 years, I might end up a believer.

wildernesse

Zippy:

I’m sorry for being sarcastic/angry in my last post, but I disagree with you. I think you are not being very polite telling people that they are deluded. Likewise, it is not nice for Christians (including myself) to tell you that you’re going to hell (or really to rant/be sarcastic/angry at your posts—sorry). While you are not required to be nice to me, I know that I would appreciate it. I am just aggravated about the double standard that can be annoyed about “Deep down, atheists really KNOW there is a God” but blithely states “Deep down, theists really KNOW there is no God” and such like. I hope that we can talk more, here and on other threads, about all sorts of things.

First of all, your 'truth' has no basis in fact and is therefore not 'truth' by any proper definition of the world.

You neglected to mention any facts that back up your case that theists are deluded half-wits likely to cause the extinction of the human race. What are your reasons?

Secondly, I am not calling YOU a deluded brainwashed half-wit, and I do not claim that you are hell-bend on our extinction. I was pointing to the extremes that exist in the religious community.

If you think theists are delusional, then you ARE talking about me because I fit in the category of “theists”.

I have confidence that if people are shown the true facts, they will make the correct decision by their own accord.

What if they don’t make the correct decision that you did? Then what will you do? Why are there so many educated people who are not atheists?

Religion is the cause of war, terrorism, death and destruction on an almost unbelievable scale.

I would say that this is a result of being human—no matter what kind of society you live in, the one common denominator is that you are living in a HUMAN society. Politics also cause war, terrorism, death and destruction. What about eco-terrorism? What religion makes them tick? What about the Gulf War? How was that religious? Explain how Timothy McVeigh’s religion led him to bomb the Murrah building? If there are religious reasons behind these events, I’m not aware of them. Educate me please.

How can a lack of understanding (I hesitate to use the word 'ignorance' in case I offend any friendly Christians who may be passing) possibly be beneficial to society as a whole?

Haha. I’ve made you PC! How horrible! Sorry about that, now I feel really bad. Please feel free to say what you wish! I’ll try to be ‘offended’ quietly. heehee

--tiba

Tricia

Mind if I join you?

~Tricia

Zippy

I am being polite, but I'm also being honest. The very definition of atheism demands a belief that the religious are deluded. Just as you believe that I am deluded. I don't mind you thinking that, I expect it.
</strong>
Well, I don't think Christians 'know deep down' that there is no God. Although I find it impossible to fully understand how people can believe, the evidence tends to suggest that people really do believe.
You're misquoting me - I didn't mean that all theists are these things. Just some. The Muslims who wish death on all infidels, the Christian fundamentalist movement that demands that everyone - religious or not - conform to their 'standards'. These are the dangerous halfwits. Not conventional Christians, nor conventional Muslims.
Delusional fits, yes. Brainwashed too (I hate the term 'brainwashed' - I really mean 'socially conditioned'). Just not the others.
Well, if they don't then they don't, and I'd be happy to leave them to it. I want people to be able to make a choice when confonted with all of the facts - most people are not given that choice.

As to educated believers, well - there are loads of reasons why people might believe despite their education - but education in specific areas does help to cut down on religious belief. Look at the scientific community for instance. Quite an atheistic bunch in comparison to the general population!

I think the point is that religious belief plays a large part in most terrorist attacks, even if there are underlying political causes. People use it to whip people up into a frenzy of religious hatred.

Paul

wildernesse

Zippy:

Deluded carries the connotation that I have been tricked into believing. That is not the case. I don’t mind you saying that I’m wrong—but that someone has deceived me into my current beliefs is patronizing. That’s what I mean by saying it’s not nice to say I’m deluded. I also don’t mind the fact that I have been socially conditioned to believe—I’ve been socially conditioned to think that democracy is the best way to govern, to prize individualism, to embrace freedom for all. “Brainwashed” also carries the connotation that I have been tricked. Also, who was the first deceptor?

Religion is a very dangerous form of ignorance that could well lead to our extinction. . . .

Sorry for using my own terms earlier. Here are your words. How could religious belief lead to our extinction?

I think the point is that religious belief plays a large part in most terrorist attacks, even if there are underlying political causes.

But it’s the political causes themselves which are the basis on which religious frenzy builds. And people can work themselves into a frenzy without religion—think of the adoration of Elvis or the Beatles.

--tiba