Ensign Steve

REGARDLESS, the definition I was using was obvious from the context in which I used it. I'm not trying to argue semantics. I was not refering to faith as in loyalty, conviction, etc. I was referring specifically to faith in the absence of proof.

If I that is not what the original poster meant, that is my mistake. It still doesn't change what I meant by it.

So any arguments against my post that use a different definition of faith are ad hoc arguments.

Ensign Steve

Okay, well that doesn't apply to me. As I don't claim to have faith.

Quote:

The propaganda I was talking about was Atheists believing there are good grounds for rejecting Christ. In fact there are none. To believe that there are is propaganda.

How is simply believing something propaganda? Do you know what propaganda is?

Quote:

If Christ could not be proven a fraud by the Jews in the days before AD70 and the destruction of Jersualem, of which Christ prophecied - and the Jews were inveterate enemies of Christians - then there is no way that anyone on this WWW site will be able to prove it. The world had its chance to prove Christ a fraud, and was not able to. Neither will you, nor anyone else. That's the problem that atheists face. They can't prove Christ was a fraud.

Good thing the burden of proof is not on atheists.

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And so they ought not to belittle or condemn those with faith, because atheists can offer no alternative.

I don't belittle or condemn anybody. If you are referring to my comment about faith being a crutch, that was an answer to a question posed by an atheist, answered by an atheist, in an atheism forum. If a theist finds that answer to be belittling or condemning, I don't know what I should do about that. It's not as if I go onto the BB's of people who believe something different than I do and start belittling or condemning them.

Jen

Bluefire211

Here's a quote that I find quite meaningful, from a favorite of mine, Galileo Galilei.
"I do not feel obliged to believe that same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect had intended for us to forgo their use."

At least he knew that blind faith in something was meaningless, although that didn't stop the church from forcing him to recant his statements that the Earth was not the center of the universe.

Food for thought.

So its ok to redefine a word to suit your own beliefs? You cannot prove something by changing the definition of the words.
Secondly, Einstein did not take his theory on faith, nor did anyone else. He came up with his theories as a logical explanation for things which classical (Newtonian) physics could not explain. He then backed up his theories with hard evidence, evidence which still holds true today. Anyone who knows a little about physics can understand it, and also could and did so then. His ideas revolutionized physics. However, his theory is not universal, just as Newton's wasn't, and is thus still subject to modification by current scholars to better and more fully explain the workings of the universe.


Sounds a lot like a hasty generalization to me. That would be a logical fallacy, which would make the statement quite false.
Maybe an Ad Hominem too, there was kind of a condescending tone there, but I am not quite sure on that.

Oh, and the comment JenD made about propaganda, let me go ahead and explain that for you:
From Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, 10th edition:
propaganda (noun): 2: the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person.
3: ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause.

Definition 1 was omitted because it has to do with Romans, and has nothing to do with the modern meaning.

So as you can see, pretty much this whole forum is "propaganda" as is your religion, along with every other religion, cause, discussion group, activists, etc. However, it has nothing to do with actually believing anything.


Let me just clue you in to a fact about atheists that apparently few christians know:
If your beliefs were as obviously true as you seem to think they are, then there wouldn't be any atheists, would there? Believe me, if God personally comes to talk to me, that would be plenty obvious enough for me to believe. Maybe even if some great miracle happened, like a herd of pink unicorns suddenly appearing in my backyard, I would certainly at least question my disbelief.

Over and out,
Bluefire211

Proxima Centauri

For once you have said something reasonable Gemma Therese. Perception can make a difference in many areas. For example I think of Clement Attlee . I see a good man who helped make Great Britain a caring society in the second half of the 20th Century. Here's examples of what he did.

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The government implemented the Education Act of 1944, which made secondary education compulsory for all, and in 1947 Attlee raised the school leaving age to 15, despite calls from some colleagues for a postponement due to serious financial problems. It also began the payment of family allowances to mothers for each child after their first. The National Insurance Act of 1946 provided for a compulsory and universal system of insurance against unemployment and other ills. Although it largely implemented the 1942 Beveridge Report, the Act went further than war-time recommendations. In particular it provided pensions immediately for women over 60 and men over 65, whereas Beveridge had called for them to be phased in over time, as people’s contributions built up the Insurance Fund. In 1948 the National Health Service was inaugurated, providing health care free at the point of need. This was perhaps the most beneficial of all Labour’s reforms.

People politically far to the right see Clement Attlee as a Socialist who weakened British self reliance.
You, Gemma Therese probably see my interest in Clement Attlee as an annoying irrelevance. Its distracting me from developing a groveling sense of inadequacy because I don't believe in God.
We all have different perceptions.

Godless Dave

He does? He's never asked me to do anything. In fact he's never spoken to me at all.

Ensign Steve

Dave, you must have faith that he does! Don't you see why this is so important?! I'm going to pray for you!

Bluefire211

Surrending your logic would involve not thinking.
Should we think about surrending our logic (thought)?

Or should we just not think and realize how illogical the existence your god is and just have faith in him instead?

Over and out,
Bluefire211

Gooch's dad

You have very strange standards for what you find believable. I don't have to 'prove Christ a fraud', it is up to YOU to show that the belief is reasonable. Skepticism is the default position.

Actually there are great reasons to dismiss the Christian story--you won't accept them, because you have a double standard. You accept the gospel writings as actual history, yet I'm sure you don't accept such writings as the Iliad or the writings of Appolonius of Tyana as actual history.

There are sound naturalistic explanations for what we find in the gospel stories. The people of that time were incredibly superstitious. The Acts of the Apostles records this nicely--Paul and Barnabas were revered as incarnations of Roman gods when they got a lame man to walk. These are people that you expect me to take as good witnesses?

Jamie_L

The funny thing is, I think almost any Christian who was confronted with a random stranger off the street who claimed God had spoken to him and commanded him to do such-and-such, those Christians would be very hesitant to take this on "faith".

Consider the David Koresh's of the world, who go about claiming this very sort of thing. Few mainstream Christians stand up and say "let's have faith that this really is God's will". No, they say "this guy is either a liar or insane. Logically, God doesn't talk to people like this and tell them to do these sorts of things."

I don't get it.

Jamie

Bluefire211

Historically, these people would have been considered heretics and usually burned at the stake, or dispatched in some other unpleasant way.

Sick.

Over and out,
Bluefire211