Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RJS · 09-11-2002, 04:21 PM

Kind Bud (or others)

At the risk of asking another question....

So with all of this quantum mechanics/Planck/10 to the -43rd, etc.....does it suggest then that the only event in the history of the universe that didn't have a cause was the BB? Or are there other such immeasurable events with no cause?

Infinity Lover · 09-11-2002, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:

You should appreciate that I come seeking information, not to preach or "save you". At the essence of my questions is an attempt to figure out what atheist have to "put their faith in"
[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

How could you apply yourself, as a Christian, unless you also believe in yourself?

When push comes to shove, it's not about which tool you choose, but about picking it up, recognizing it for what it is, and how you use it.

I think too many pick up the tool, and see it for something to sell to others. A life of convincing others, rather than a life's conviction. See what I mean?

What do we have to live for?
LOOK AROUND YOU!

The good in life tells us what we're doing it for. The bad shit tells us why we're doing it.

And life itself teaches us how to do it.

(Oops, double post; aw well

)

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Infinity Lover ]

Infinity Lover · 09-11-2002, 04:31 PM

Quote:

How could you apply yourself, as a Christian, unless you also believe in yourself?

When push comes to shove, it's not about which tool you choose, but about picking it up, recognizing it for what it is, and how you use it.

I think too many pick up the tool, and see it for something to sell to others. A life of convincing others, rather than a life's conviction. See what I mean?

What do we have to live for?
LOOK AROUND YOU!

The good in life tells us what we're doing it for. The bad shit tells us why we're doing it.

And life itself teaches us how to do it.

Respect.
Marcel
[/qb]

(And science is homing in on a cause. There is such a thing as comon logic. There's no such thing as nonexistence, so you're always working towards figuring out an eternal process. Check out the thread on M-theory.)

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Infinity Lover ]

RJS · 09-11-2002, 04:32 PM

Infinity - I think you misunderstood my comment.

When a common perception is that science has figured out ALL answers we may have (BB, evolution, genome, whatever), why is it disturbing that I search with you to find out what we don't have answers to.

Autonemesis · 09-11-2002, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:
So with all of this quantum mechanics/Planck/10 to the -43rd, etc.....does it suggest then that the only event in the history of the universe that didn't have a cause was the BB? Or are there other such immeasurable events with no cause?

Anything that "happens" at quantum scales lacks a cause in the everyday, macro-scale, billiard-ball-A-strikes-billiard-ball-B sense that you mean. So to answer your question, there have been uncountable number of such "events" since the big bang. The vacuum is "frothing" with them, as the common analogy goes. Particles and anti-particles emerge into existence and annihilate each other constantly. But the tiny fraction of time during which they exist - even though we cannot measure any individual pair coming and going - imparts energy to the vacuum (E=mc squared, remember). This vacuum energy has been measured, and researchers approach an understanding of these quantum scale phenomena using the statistical methods of quantum mechanics, coupled with experimental evidence.

[edit: vacuum has but one 'c']

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Kind Bud ]

Kosh · 09-11-2002, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MarcoPolo:


So, since goats were only one of the things they herded, generalizing the entire religion as being created by a 'small tribe of goat herders' is something your would consider factual?

Yes. The religion is indeed that of a bunch of
ignorant sheep herders.

Quote:

Using a modern dictionary to define what's considered ignorant during the Bronze Age is a bit of a stretch. They weren't rocket scientists, but they must have known enough to keep their civilization going. But by the definition you used, we're all 'ignorant' of something.

True, but we have digital watches. What part of
"lacking in knowledge" do you think isn't fair to
defining "ignorant" back then? Would "lacking in knowledge" have been considered something other than ignorant?

Quote:

No. But your 'fact' was made up of a couple of over-generalizations. Rather un-factual if you ask any non-ignorant person.

So, would you say that this abrahamic religion was created by highly educated people? People who understood the universe as we know it today?

Kosh · 09-11-2002, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:


The comment was directed to you (not all atheists), and I used the word MAYBE. I am trying to discern why you would post such a sarcastic and hateful(imo) post, after what I consider to be 2 pages of generally cordial interactions.

Are you mad at something?

Ah, but it wasn't sarcastic. It was based on my understanding of the history or Xianty. Just because you find it offensive that I should have the balls to call you out on your religion, doesn't make it sarcastic.

Now, hatefull would be something like "Those scum sucking Jews who lied like the bastards they are". THAT would be hatefull. But as shown earlier, "IGNORANT BRONZE AGE GOAT HERDERS" is just a bunch of descriptive adjectives that are correct.

RJS · 09-11-2002, 05:40 PM

The questions surrounding your comment, in part, caused the sarcasm....

"Can we agree on that?"

That is what you said after I attempted to be civil for 40 prior posts (with cooperation from many regular posters)..

Did you really think I would agree. Maybe it was just rhetorical...not sarcastic. Either way, it was offensive.

Regards.

Kosh · 09-11-2002, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:
The questions surrounding your comment, in part, caused the sarcasm....

"Can we agree on that?"

That is what you said after I attempted to be civil for 40 prior posts (with cooperation from many regular posters)..

Did you really think I would agree. Maybe it was just rhetorical...not sarcastic. Either way, it was offensive.

Regards.

I'm still unclear on how it was offensive to you. I never mentioned you. How can you take offense at something that wasn't directed at you?

Also, please note the
<a href="http://www.locksley.com/6696/norights.htm" target="_blank">Bill Of No Rights</a>, article #2.

RJS · 09-11-2002, 06:06 PM

To whom was it directed then? My apologies for assuming the "We" in your question included me.

You have got to be kidding me. Just because there is a Bill of Rights (or whatever the link is to), doesnt mean I cant be offended. In fact, you suggesting I shouldnt be offended probably violates that same Bill. It is not like I have arrested you and put you in jail. Lets just end this silly argument. You win.

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

09-11-2002, 06:06 PM	#80
RJS Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 303	To whom was it directed then? My apologies for assuming the "We" in your question included me. You have got to be kidding me. Just because there is a Bill of Rights (or whatever the link is to), doesnt mean I cant be offended. In fact, you suggesting I shouldnt be offended probably violates that same Bill. It is not like I have arrested you and put you in jail. Lets just end this silly argument. You win. [ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]</p>

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09-11-2002, 04:21 PM	#71
RJS Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 303	Kind Bud (or others) At the risk of asking another question.... So with all of this quantum mechanics/Planck/10 to the -43rd, etc.....does it suggest then that the only event in the history of the universe that didn't have a cause was the BB? Or are there other such immeasurable events with no cause?

09-11-2002, 04:32 PM	#74
RJS Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 303	Infinity - I think you misunderstood my comment. When a common perception is that science has figured out ALL answers we may have (BB, evolution, genome, whatever), why is it disturbing that I search with you to find out what we don't have answers to.

09-11-2002, 05:40 PM	#78
RJS Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 303	The questions surrounding your comment, in part, caused the sarcasm.... "Can we agree on that?" That is what you said after I attempted to be civil for 40 prior posts (with cooperation from many regular posters).. Did you really think I would agree. Maybe it was just rhetorical...not sarcastic. Either way, it was offensive. Regards.

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