Freethought & Rationalism Archive

crocodile deathroll · 12-22-2002, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rousseau_CHN:
Life is absurd. All that we do on earth is made useless by death. The wealth we make, the success we make, the love we give...all is thrown back to nothingness.

That is my understanding of existentialism.

And yet, says the existentialist, we must continue to live life.

Now my question is, I failed to finish Camus' Myth of Sisyphus, what should force us to continue to live according to Camus?

It is more than that;. even our sense time and space is negated. It will of negated any inkling that you have ever live at all in the first place.

So does it really matter? Who cares.

[ December 22, 2002: Message edited by: crocodile deathroll ]

Beoran · 12-22-2002, 07:16 AM

Rousseau_CHN:

Well, ifthat's what you meran by extensialism, then I guess I'm one? Isn't the quote I gave In my previous message a good example of creating our own meaning? Oh, and I'm Flemish Belgian, not Dutch. Though we speak almost the same language, there are some cultural dfifferences. We Belgians enjoy the good life with disregard for authority and power. So, in the case of Sissipus, I'd drop the rock and go do something more fun. The only rock-rolling I want to do is rocking and rolling to the music, babe! ^_^

faustuz · 12-22-2002, 08:36 PM

Why do people who have never read the existentialists insist on disagreeing with them? (You are not the first). “I’ve never managed to even finish one of your very short stories, but I disagree with you”. “I have almost no idea what you said, but I disagree with you”.

So, to clue you in, the “existentialists” (Camus is only marginally in that camp) do not say life is meaningless. Sartre, in fact, spends ample thousands of pages explaining just how meaningful life is. What they say is that there is no “external” meaning. That does not mean there is not “internal”, or subjective, meaning. The disbelief in external meaning pretty much goes hand in hand with a disbelief in God. If there is no external meaning, then you’d damn well better find an internal one, or you are existential toast. This is what the existentialists were saying (and much, much more!) Please, please go back and read Camus, and Sartre and Nietzsche while you’re at it.

faustuz · 12-22-2002, 08:42 PM

Rousseau_CHN, I'm confused. I posted after reading your first post, which seemed to imply that you haven't read Camus, but find his views repugnant. However, after reading down the thread you seem to be familiar with the existentialists and even sympathetic to their views. If this is the case I apologize for my somewhat rude post above.

faustuz · 12-22-2002, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beoran:
So, in the case of Sissipus, I'd drop the rock and go do something more fun. The only rock-rolling I want to do is rocking and rolling to the music, babe! ^_^

I think the point of the story was that if the Gods say you're going to roll a rock, you're going to roll a rock. To say you are going to do otherwise is equivalent to deciding you're just going to fall up today.

It's nice to live the good life, and be happy, go lucky. But reality intrudes from time to time and life becomes like rolling a rock. Somebody you love dies, you become a cripple, something you believe in turns out to be false. These are the things we must all deal with at times. Life may become a burden. How will you persevere?

[ December 22, 2002: Message edited by: faustuz ]

phaedrus · 12-22-2002, 11:17 PM

Umm.....maybe this would help in clearing the air...

Quote:

""There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. Deciding whether or not life is worth living is to answer the fundamental question in philosophy. All other questions follow from that."
According to Camus, suicide was a sign that one lacked the strength to face "nothing." Life is an adventure without final meaning, but still worth experiencing. Since there is nothing else, life should be lived to its fullest and derive meaning from human existence. For Camus, people were what gave life meaning. However, in the moments following the realization that one will, one's descendants will die... in fact, earth will die, one senses a deep anxiety. And, as an atheist, Camus doubted meaning beyond this life.

"A world which can be explained, even through bad reasoning, is a familiar one. On the other hand, in a world suddenly devoid of illusion and light, man feels like a stranger."

Isolated from any logic, without an easy explanation for why one exists, there is what some call "existential angst." While Camus did not use the phrase, it adequately describes the sensation. Even existentialists of faith struggle with creation, wondering why humanity exists when a Creator would not need mankind. Merely wanting to create something seems like a curious reason to create life. So, even for those of faith, the initial creation is puzzling.

How does one exist without any given purpose or meaning? How does one develop meaning? The Myth of Sisyphus addresses this directly in the retelling of the famous tale. Considering the plight of Sisyphus, condemned to roll a stone up a mountain knowing the stone will roll down yet again, it is easy to declare his existence absurd and without hope. It would be easy to believe Sisyphus might prefer death... but in Camus' myth, he does not.

"Living the absurd� means a total lack of hope (which is not the same as despair), a permanent reflection (which is not the same as renunciation), and a conscious dissatisfaction (which is not the same as juvenile anxiety)."

For Camus, Sisyphus is the ultimate absurd hero. He was sentenced for the crime of loving life too much; he defied the gods and fought death. The gods thought they found a perfect form of torture for Sisyphus. He would constantly hope for success, that the stone would remain at the top of the mountain. This, the gods thought, would forever frustrate him.

Yet, defying the gods yet again, Sisyphus is without hope. He abandons any illusion that he might succeed at the assigned task. Once he does this, Camus considers him a hero. Sisyphus begins to view his ability to do the task again and again -- to endure the punishment -- a form of victory.

"The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. We have to imagine Sisyphus happy."

Rousseau_CHN · 12-23-2002, 02:55 AM

Quote:

faustuz
Rousseau_CHN, I'm confused. I posted after reading your first post, which seemed to imply that you haven't read Camus, but find his views repugnant. However, after reading down the thread you seem to be familiar with the existentialists and even sympathetic to their views. If this is the case I apologize for my somewhat rude post above.

Don't worry, no harm done

Rousseau_CHN · 12-23-2002, 02:58 AM

Since we are all atheists and existentialists here, may I be allowed to quote from the greatest atheistic existentialist that ever lived--Jean Paul Sartre

Quote:

Existentialism is nothing less than an attempt to draw all the consequences of a coherent atheistic position. It isn't trying to plunge man into despair at all. But if one calls every attitude of unbelief despair, like the Christians, then the word is not being used in its original sense. Existentialism isn't so atheistic that it wears itself out showing that God doesn't exist. Rather, it declares that even if God did exist, that would change nothing. There you've got our point of view. Not that we believe that God exists, but we think that the problem of His existence is not the issue. In this sense, existentialism is optimistic, a doctrine of action, and it is plain dishonesty for Christians to make no distinction between their own despair and ours and then to call us despairing.
If man, as the existentialist conceives him, is indefinable, it is because at first he is nothing. Only afterward will he be something, and he himself will have made what he will be. Thus there is no human nature, since there is no God to conceive it. Not only is man what he conceives himself to be, but he is also only what he wills himself to be after this thrust toward existence.

Beoran · 12-23-2002, 04:27 AM

Phaedris: Well, if Sissipus found a way to enjoy rolling his rock, then power to him!

However, I find "living the absurd" as you describe it lacking a bit in merriment.

Faustuz:
Well, happily, there are no gods to make us roll rocks. Yes, life can be difficult at times. When I'm sad, I cry. Death and suffering are inevitable. All the more reasons to live fully. My basic idea is simple. "Life is good." No matter how bad it becomes, it is far preferrable to it's opposite, death. I shall drink my cup till the last drop, be it bitter or sweet.

Mr. Sammi · 12-23-2002, 06:20 AM

Many may say Camus was an atheist, but Camus cautioned others when he said 'it is absurd to live this life without thought to the beyond'. I have paraphrased a bit.

I think Camus wanted to empower people over drudgery. Did Sysiphus have his joy at the bottom of the hill, when he turned, gathered his wits, tossed his head to the Gods, and rolled his stone back up the hill? Sysiphus was in the realm of the Gods, doing the bidding of the Gods, and all the life which Sysiphus had experienced, perhaps one day Sysiphus would have been able to once again enjoy the favour of the Gods - in final triumph.

* * *

If you believe Sartre and existentialism and the no meaning beyond what is apparent, you should read "Les jeux sont fait" by Sartre, which is a story that is supernaturally tear jerking. "No Exit" is also the hell of the existentialist.

* * *

I believe existentialism to be the philosophy of recovery. If you have had problems in life with other people, with idiot governments, with a loss in belief of the human race, try existentialism. It is guarenteed to bring life back to you, OR to help create that much needed you-energy.

However existentialism has itz problems because THERE ARE NO EXCUSES.

Sammi Na Boodie ()

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12-22-2002, 07:16 AM	#12
Beoran Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 75	Rousseau_CHN: Well, ifthat's what you meran by extensialism, then I guess I'm one? Isn't the quote I gave In my previous message a good example of creating our own meaning? Oh, and I'm Flemish Belgian, not Dutch. Though we speak almost the same language, there are some cultural dfifferences. We Belgians enjoy the good life with disregard for authority and power. So, in the case of Sissipus, I'd drop the rock and go do something more fun. The only rock-rolling I want to do is rocking and rolling to the music, babe! ^_^

12-22-2002, 08:36 PM	#13
faustuz Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: SoCal Posts: 207	Why do people who have never read the existentialists insist on disagreeing with them? (You are not the first). “I’ve never managed to even finish one of your very short stories, but I disagree with you”. “I have almost no idea what you said, but I disagree with you”. So, to clue you in, the “existentialists” (Camus is only marginally in that camp) do not say life is meaningless. Sartre, in fact, spends ample thousands of pages explaining just how meaningful life is. What they say is that there is no “external” meaning. That does not mean there is not “internal”, or subjective, meaning. The disbelief in external meaning pretty much goes hand in hand with a disbelief in God. If there is no external meaning, then you’d damn well better find an internal one, or you are existential toast. This is what the existentialists were saying (and much, much more!) Please, please go back and read Camus, and Sartre and Nietzsche while you’re at it.

12-22-2002, 08:42 PM	#14
faustuz Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: SoCal Posts: 207	Rousseau_CHN, I'm confused. I posted after reading your first post, which seemed to imply that you haven't read Camus, but find his views repugnant. However, after reading down the thread you seem to be familiar with the existentialists and even sympathetic to their views. If this is the case I apologize for my somewhat rude post above.

12-23-2002, 04:27 AM	#19
Beoran Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 75	Phaedris: Well, if Sissipus found a way to enjoy rolling his rock, then power to him! However, I find "living the absurd" as you describe it lacking a bit in merriment. Faustuz: Well, happily, there are no gods to make us roll rocks. Yes, life can be difficult at times. When I'm sad, I cry. Death and suffering are inevitable. All the more reasons to live fully. My basic idea is simple. "Life is good." No matter how bad it becomes, it is far preferrable to it's opposite, death. I shall drink my cup till the last drop, be it bitter or sweet.

12-23-2002, 06:20 AM	#20
Mr. Sammi Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montr�al Posts: 367	Many may say Camus was an atheist, but Camus cautioned others when he said 'it is absurd to live this life without thought to the beyond'. I have paraphrased a bit. I think Camus wanted to empower people over drudgery. Did Sysiphus have his joy at the bottom of the hill, when he turned, gathered his wits, tossed his head to the Gods, and rolled his stone back up the hill? Sysiphus was in the realm of the Gods, doing the bidding of the Gods, and all the life which Sysiphus had experienced, perhaps one day Sysiphus would have been able to once again enjoy the favour of the Gods - in final triumph. * * * If you believe Sartre and existentialism and the no meaning beyond what is apparent, you should read "Les jeux sont fait" by Sartre, which is a story that is supernaturally tear jerking. "No Exit" is also the hell of the existentialist. * * * I believe existentialism to be the philosophy of recovery. If you have had problems in life with other people, with idiot governments, with a loss in belief of the human race, try existentialism. It is guarenteed to bring life back to you, OR to help create that much needed you-energy. However existentialism has itz problems because THERE ARE NO EXCUSES. Sammi Na Boodie ()

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