yguy

I'd rather toilet train a retarded child.

Wayne P

Well Biff I guess you got dismissed just like I did. No answers, no reasoned logic... just dismissal from a person who obviously is tired of having to defend his bankrupt religious philosophy.

I was under the impression that questions are asked on this board so that the questioner can learn what the other person's ideas are. I thought that is why Theists/Christians came here, to give others their slant on their beliefs. But, when you have people, like us, asking for help to understand the other person's thinking all you get is dismissal and abuse. Is this what Jesus would have done? Is this contending for the faith?

I guess pleasantness is not part of his outreach ministry. Very many of these Theists/Christians are like that, hostile. Whatever happened to meekness and mildness? One wonders why yguy is still here on this board if he is not willing to have a meaningfull discussion with other members?

As to helping others to see the truth in his religion all he seems to be interested in is alienating the people he disagrees with. After looking through the archives to see what he has had to say before I can't imagine what I was thinking asking him a question in the first place. This is obviously one angry yguy.

Opera Nut

Thanks for the support, Wayne and Biff.

M is an intellectual and religious FRAUD. I've quoted the mainstream Jewish opinion of those fake Jews.

He certainly has not answered this question: Why is he SO AFRAID TO BE CALLED A CHRISTIAN??

Many millions of people proudly wear the label "CHRISTIAN" and use it to justify their actions.

None of the supporters of M and his ilk have read or comprehended the arguments AGAINST Jesus as the Messiah of the Jews, taken straight from the OT as I have copied from messiahtruth.com and jewsforjudaism. com. I do not pretend to be a religious scholar; this is why I was copying information written by learned rabbis of Mainstream Judaism.

They ignore the extreme contrast between the OT rules for the future Messiah of the Jews and what Jesus is alleged to have done as the Messiah of the splinter group that became Christianity. And they don't give any rational arguments, they just resort to dismissal and name calling.

The OT and the NT contradict each other in many ways, not just the Messiah-ness of Jesus, as Wayne has already pointed out, that the OT Messiah is human and born of royal lineage on BOTH sides, not born supernaturally from a virgin, as Jesus is alleged to have been. It all got stolen from other Messianic cults like Isis and Mithra, anyway.

I stand by my statements, and I will defend the intellectual and cultural accomplishments of the Jewish culture as I stomp the small mindedness, total illogic, repression and subversion of the advancement of human rights and human thought, and blind faith of Christianity, to my dying breath.

Magus55

You aren't trying to learn what our ideas are. You don't give a crap - all atheists care to do is mock, insult, ridicule, and flame us for our beliefs. Your only purpose is to make us feel stupid.

And we aren't being pleasant? This coming from the people that call Christians idiots and delusional morons, or me a disgrace to my heritage and family because I believe in something different than the norm.

We can definately see God missing from your lives. Atheists are filled with anger, hate, resentment, bitterness and ridicule towards Christians. Hmm, funny how God said that would happen.

Instead of being a hypocrite and calling us unpleasant and not opening up to help you understand - how about atheists as a whole stop bringing up sarcastic, obnoxious and insulting remarks in every post towards Christians.

I can see from your post count, you are new here Wayne P, but before calling us hostile - you need to spend some more time on this board looking at remarks from atheists. I'm insulted and ridiculed by atheists on a daily basis. Compared to atheists on this board, the Christians are quite civil and pleasant - especially considering how much abuse we get.

yguy

You kidding me? I'm just getting warmed up.

Sometimes they are. Sometimes they are puerile attempts to be nothing more than an intellectual drain on a person's psyche, to annoy rather than clarify.

That would be better directed towards a Christian. As for me, I'm here to say what I think. Don't make more out of it than that.

The idea that defenders of the Judaeo-Christian ethic are morally obligated to be limpwristed, unconditionally loving wusses is starkly contrasted by not only Christ Himself, but by John the Baptist and the OT prophets.

It is precisely BECAUSE I value meaningful discussion that I despise wasting my time with silly questions.

I don't have a religion.

Sometimes, yes...and sometimes no.

Obviously you read just enough of my posts to confirm your prejudice. I've had plenty of venomous contempt - veiled or otherwise - directed at me without responding in kind. There is a time for gentrified civility, and there is a time for insolence; and for the most part, I know which is which.

Dr Rick

So if a Messianic Jew is a Jew that believes in Jesus, do we have a special name for a Hindu or Muslim that converts, too? Is there such a thing as a Messianic Buddhist or a Mohammedian Christian? Does it even make sense to mix up labels like this?
Now that we have "Jews for Jesus," can we get "Christians for Mohammed" going?

I pretty sure that if I call my horse a cow, it will still be a horse.

Rational BAC

People can have varying beliefs and still be considered what they consider to be the main emphasis of their belief system.

Magus considers himself to be a 1st century Jew. From what I can tell that is exactly what he is. Like very many 1st century Jews, he believes that Jesus is the saviour.

So what is all the fuss about?
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Now I consider myself to be a Christian, and most on this forum have come to admit that. Some in spite of themselves, I will admit. But I do not know what I could be or anyone think me to be except for Christian ---because of my core beliefs.

Even though-----------

----------I believe the Bible was NOT divinely inspired, that Paul's writings at best should be taken with a large grain of salt, that Revelations is complete hokum, and that the Old Testament is a nice piece of literature, but nothing more than that. That original sin is bogus. And I'm not real sure but what the trinity was just a made up thing to make Christianity seem monotheistic.------------


(I do believe that Christ lived, was born of the virgin Mary and so was half God half man, was crucified and was resurrected)---in that part my faith is unshakeable. All the rest of it I have no problem questioning every which way but sideways.

I think it is great that almost no one questions my Christianity anymore. So why do so many of you (especially non-Jews) on this forum question Magus' Judaism? Simply because he believes that Jesus WAS the Jewish messiah.

Makes no sense to me. I don't think it does to you either when you really think about it.

Dr Rick

That's like asking, "So why do so many of you (especially non-Muslims) on this forum question Jerry Falwell's Muslim faith? Simply because he believes that Jesus WAS the Jewish messiah

Opera Nut

The main problem here with the Christians is that they are always unable to give straight answers to some of the tough philosophical questions that atheist/infidels/whatever ask them.

The Christians are very fond of circular logic and holding two contrary ideas at the same time. Such as "We have free will to love the Christian God. The Christian God has given us the choice whether or not to love Him." and also "But if we do not love the Christian God out of our own free will, he will punish us and send us to Hell, we who have a finite lifespan will be hurled to eternal punishment."

Circular logic is "God said it, it's in the Babble, that settles it."
When it is pointed out that the Bible was written by fallible men, most of whom are completely unknown and anonymous, and that other fallible men decided which books would be canonical due to political and power-grabbing considerations, these criticisms are brushed off. Furthermore, there is no contemporary historical record of a person named Jesus and all the Gospels were written some years after the alleged death of the alleged Jesus. There are no eyewitness accounts that are known.

This inability to answer questions from the atheists has been shown time and again in many different fora on this board. And I'm not an old timer here. Christians get very unhappy when their ideas are challenged to debate, in order to winnow the truth from the falsity. Any ideas and any faith which cannot stand up to honest debate should be highly suspect.

I have yet to see ONE SINGLE Christian argue with me in a logical manner, point by point, face to face or online, and this whole discussion board is no different.

This is the standard I go by, and I think it is a practical one.
(I posted this in the thread "People of all faiths make wrong decisions):

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.

"Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.

"Do not believe in anything because it is spoken and rumored by many.

"Do not believe in anything simply because it is written in your religious books.

"Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.

"But, after observation and analysis, when you find anything that agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."

This is what the Buddha, Prince Siddharta Gautama of India, said 2547 years ago. (The Kalama Sutra)

==========
"Society everywhere is in conspiracy against the manhood of every one of its members. The virtue in most request is conformity; self-reliance is its aversion. It loves not realities and creators, but names and customs. Whoso would be a man must be a nonconformist. He who would gather immortal palms must not be hindered by the name of goodness, but must explore if it be goodness. Nothing is at last sacred except the integrity of your own mind. "
---Ralph Waldo Emerson

My words: Do not give someone the power to tell you what to do, just because they SAY that they are an authority. Do not give your judgment to another person who doesn't know your experiences and your heart, and your values.

This doesn't mean break laws and go to jail. It means to weigh what you listen to and don't accept it uncritically.

I have learned the hard way to not give someone else the authority to break my self-esteem and break my hope.
UNQUOTE

ANOTHER GREAT QUOTE:

CHERISH YOUR DOUBTS
Cherish your doubts, for doubt is the handmaiden of truth.

Doubt is the key to the door of knowledge; it is the servant of discovery.

A believe which may not be questioned binds us to error, for there is incompleteness and imperfection in every belief.

Doubt is the touchstone of truth; it is an acid which eats away the false.

Let no man fear for the truth, that doubt may consume it; for doubt is a testing of belief.

The truth stands boldly and unafraid; it is not shaken by the testing:

For truth, if it be truth, arises from each testing stronger, more secure.

He that would silence doubt is filled with fear; the house of his spirit is built on shifting sands.

But he that fears not doubt, and knows its use, is founded on a rock.

He shall walk in the light of growing knowledge; the work of his hands shall endure.

Therefore let us not fear doubt, but let us rejoice in its help:

It is to the wise as a staff to the blind; doubt is the handmaiden of truth.

---Robert T. Weston, late minister of the First Unitarian Chuch of Omaha, Nebraska.

UNQUOTE

Wayne P

This is just too funny, almost identical posts from both yguy and Magus. And guess what? Nasty atheists are to blame for all their ill will and bad humor! They came in here, to an (gasp!) atheist discussion board, threw around all their peace and love and were turned into mean, tho vigilant, warriors for their beliefs.

Magus
yguy
You'll notice in both their letters they lump me with all the other atheist. I've posted here only three or four times but already they BOTH know exactly what I think and what my intentions are. All of their responses have tarred me with the same broad brush that they tar all their perceived enemies.

One would have to ask the obvious question, which I know won't get answered, why are you both here?
Why subject yourselfs to the ridicule, mockery, and insults. Not to mention the 'venomous contempt -veiled or otherwise'. I've read the archives, you both came in here with chips on your shoulders, which have only gotten bigger since you been here. I mean don't you have more productive things to do than hang around an atheist board and pick fights? If things are so awfull here, why do you stay?

To Rational BAC -

Magus never claimed to be a first century Jew. He claimed that he was no different than today's Mainstream Jews. He also claimed that the ONLY difference between him and a Mainstream Jew was that his messiah had already come. Unfortunately his being a Christian means that his Messiah is God incarnate, which Mainstream Jewish denomination thinks that the messiah will be God incarnate? Which Mainstream Jewish denomination has two sets of scripture, one of which abrogates the Torah? Which Mainstream Jewish denomination believes that salvation is through a divine Messiah and not through following the Torah?

Thus it all boils down, in my mind, to a matter of honesty. Is he being honest when he says that he is no different than any Mainstream Jew today?

Oh, and one last thing. It's pretty obvious why you both are held in contempt , ridiculed, insulted and mocked on this board, I just can't figure out why you both come back for more! Is this some kind of internet flagellation for you both?