CX

It seems to me you're either quibbling or using a special definition of existence. The Pythagorean Theorem exists independent of any physical demonstration of it. We see this phenomenon over and over in theoretical fields. Einstein derived his general theory through intellect alone (though it was later confirmed empirically). Such abstract entities exist independent of our discovery of them or any physical demonstration. Shit. I think I'm arguing for mathematical Platonism.

And, no, I don't wish to assert anything about "God" since I neither believe in such a concept nor can I even define it.

CX

Let me ask you this then. Was the Pythogorean Theorem true before it was discovered? (I reject the idea that it was invented).

Perhaps a better question would be, are facts about the universe true before we invent a way to describe them? Perhaps the mathematical notation is an invention, but the underlying phenomenon or idea is not.

Calzaer

There was a relationship between the sides of a right triangle long before we even knew what a right triangle was. If nobody had stated the theorem, it would still work. But the theorem would not exist if there were no right triangles. Right triangles are the physical evidence of the Pythagorean Theorem.

CX: So you're claiming that even in a universe with no right triangles, the Pythagorean Theorem would still exist?

Tristan Scott

What is it that you are rejecting? What is invention? A hammer was invented by man, even though the physics that allow a hammer to work already existed. That doesn't mean that a hammer was not invented. Likewise man invented the 6 axioms that all mathematics is based on. He even revises his invention to make it conform to the physical world as his knowledge of that world evolves. For example theorems like Pythagorean's doesn't work in phased electronics, so man had to invent complex, or imaginary numbers.

In my opinion this is really at the root of secular thought, the understanding that god is a man made invention. A tool devised to help him understand his surroundings. A tool that evolves as man's understanding and knowledge evolves. Early man invented a sky god to explain the mysterious events and objects he saw in the sky. Later he invented gods for rivers and for weather, because he didn't understand those things, yet they were having profound effects on his life. Finally man looked inside himself and decided to make a god to help him understand the feelings and fears he had and actions that he made that he didn't understand, so he made a god, in his own image, to explain these things.

CX

Given that right triangles are an abstract entity independent of human consciousness can we even concieve of such a universe?

CrikketCandy

I just want to throw out here the basic criteria for something to be considered living:

• Made up of cells
• Reproduce
• Based on a genetic code
• Grow and develop
• Obtain and use materials and energy
• Respond to the environment
• Maintain a stable internal environment (homeostasis)
• Change over time

Of course, the last is still being debated...heh.

It's condensed, but I think it could be pertinent to this discussion. Does God fit these criteria for life?

luvluv

Calzaer

You'd have no way of ever knowing that such a thing existed, but you could never conclude that it didn't exist.

How could you falsify the existence of an organism whose fundamental properties were it's physical indectiblity? How could you prove that such an entity does not exist? Because you can't detect it? But that's one of it's natural properties! So you not being able to detect it would be as consistent with it's existence as with it's nonexistence.

Radcliffe Emerson

Wouldn't rocks kind of been alive when they were volcanic lava, before they cooled into rocks? The cells would have been alive at that point, wouldn't they?

Nothing can exist outside the natural laws of the universe, no matter what some religious minded person wants to think.

A 'god' has to be alive to be anything close to the ridiculous supernatural entity monotheistic religions claim exist.
No being of any kind could cause that kind of interference or interaction without being alive.

Jobar

luvluv, there are abstract entities and concrete entities.

Do you think God is abstract, or concrete?

GrandDesigner

No, God doesn't need such affirmations to be aware He exists.

Do you need affirmations like those to know you exist? I dont.

Probably more like George Lucas worshipped as George Lucas. And probably a lot sooner than a thousand years. And probably by people, clones at the least, but not machines. But as you say, who knows.

Grand Ol Designer