Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Pomp · 03-23-2002, 08:27 PM

spin,

I said:

Spin, can you honestly tell me that you see no objective difference between a cow and a human being that might be morally significant?

You replied:

You do not realise the disgust I feel for the institutionalised slaughter of animals or the people who are so insensitive they cannot feel shame for such appalling tyranny.

Please note that you did not answer my question.

spin · 03-23-2002, 08:27 PM

spin:
------------------------------
What's the most obvious that comes to mind? Be honest.
------------------------------

tronvillain:
------------------------------
Well, I'm alive and they aren't. So?
------------------------------

I'm starting to feel like the philosophical knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

The one fundamental thing that makes you different from rocks and earth is the one thing that unites you with every other animal. Sorry, to be so mundane, but it is the one thing that so easily can be robbed from one, be they human or not. If life has any meaning to you then all life should.

tronvillain · 03-23-2002, 08:30 PM

spin:

Quote:

If life has any meaning to you then all life should.

While that doesn't follow, I do value all life to some degree. So?

tronvillain · 03-23-2002, 08:33 PM

spin:

Quote:

So it has nothing to do with morals then, right? It's just gut, right?

I don't see that morals are anything more than reason applied to preferences, or "just gut."

spin · 03-23-2002, 08:33 PM

PB:
-----------------
Spin, can you honestly tell me that you see no objective difference between a cow and a human being that might be morally significant?
------------------

spin:
------------------
You do not realise the disgust I feel for the institutionalised slaughter of animals or the people who are so insensitive they cannot feel shame for such appalling tyranny.
------------------

tronvillain:
------------------
Please note that you did not answer my question.
------------------

I realise that. Just as you did not register any understand of my comment. Your original point was ill-formed and too generic to get the sort of answer you might have wanted.

All I said was that the big difference between a person raped and an animal slaughtered is the fact that the rape victim does usually survive. This is a statement that condones neither and merely underlies one difference and to me it is important.

A human animal may cut off another's hand, but I find the wanton death of an animal, which has no possibility to defend itself, worse.

spin · 03-23-2002, 08:36 PM

spin:
----------
If life has any meaning to you then all life should.
-----------

tronvillain:
-----------
While that doesn't follow, I do value all life to some degree. So?
-----------

I think my previous statement was also relevant.

tronvillain · 03-23-2002, 08:37 PM

I didn't say that. What I said was:

Quote:

You haven't answered his question. Of course, you never answered mine either. Is it because you know it will negatively affect people's opinion of you?

The best explanation I can see for you not answering is that an honest answer would negatively affect people's opinion of you and you don't want to lie.

tronvillain · 03-23-2002, 08:40 PM

spin:

Quote:

I think my previous statement was also relevant.

I assume you mean:

Quote:

The one fundamental thing that makes you different from rocks and earth is the one thing that unites you with every other animal. Sorry, to be so mundane, but it is the one thing that so easily can be robbed from one, be they human or not.

Exactly how does it unite me with every other animal, except in the sense that it is something we have in common?

Pomp · 03-23-2002, 08:52 PM

spin,

All I said was that the big difference between a person raped and an animal slaughtered is the fact that the rape victim does usually survive. This is a statement that condones neither and merely underlies one difference and to me it is important.

All right, we're progressing, if slowly. Can you think of another big difference between a rape victim and a slaughtered cow?

A human animal may cut off another's hand, but I find the wanton death of an animal, which has no possibility to defend itself, worse.

You would honestly prefer that I cut off your hand rather than kill a cow?

spin · 03-23-2002, 08:54 PM

tronvillain:
--------------
I don't see that morals are anything more than reason applied to preferences, or "just gut."
--------------

You of course have no reason to be posting here, given the subject.

I realise that you have no conscious morals. And this is a problem for you. You still have to face "I just do" which of course should be quite unsatisfying to you. How much of the "I just do" is social training when you were too young to choose?

I work on the notion that you are not inherently different from other animals. Perhaps one animal has one thing it can do better than others. Dogs have a great sense of smell. Most birds can fly. Etc. Modern humans have the capacity to organize thought through linguistic means. (Before this happened they weren't too different from chimpanzees and bonobos.) Humans are just specialised in a particular way like most other animals and have through that specialisation almost raped the entire planet through its stupidity, sending thousands of species into extinction, destroying the habitats of countless species.

The human animal has exerted its own style of might means right over the whole surface of the world. Had some other species been dominant, then that would have been stiff for humans. However, we have developed the notion of moral behaviour, which attempts to impose a certain idea of justness or rightness of action. Even you have some unconscious idea of this ("I just do"). Moral behaviour is about right action. Right action doesn't make the distinction between humans and other animals. (As I hope we've seen, humans are just one species with one specialisation -- though many humans make some qualitative difference based on that one specialisation.)

As you are an animal, why do you turn your back on other animals?

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03-23-2002, 08:27 PM	#391
Pomp Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Indianapolis area Posts: 3,468	spin, I said: Spin, can you honestly tell me that you see no objective difference between a cow and a human being that might be morally significant? You replied: You do not realise the disgust I feel for the institutionalised slaughter of animals or the people who are so insensitive they cannot feel shame for such appalling tyranny. Please note that you did not answer my question.

03-23-2002, 08:27 PM	#392
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	spin: ------------------------------ What's the most obvious that comes to mind? Be honest. ------------------------------ tronvillain: ------------------------------ Well, I'm alive and they aren't. So? ------------------------------ I'm starting to feel like the philosophical knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. The one fundamental thing that makes you different from rocks and earth is the one thing that unites you with every other animal. Sorry, to be so mundane, but it is the one thing that so easily can be robbed from one, be they human or not. If life has any meaning to you then all life should.

03-23-2002, 08:33 PM	#395
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	PB: ----------------- Spin, can you honestly tell me that you see no objective difference between a cow and a human being that might be morally significant? ------------------ spin: ------------------ You do not realise the disgust I feel for the institutionalised slaughter of animals or the people who are so insensitive they cannot feel shame for such appalling tyranny. ------------------ tronvillain: ------------------ Please note that you did not answer my question. ------------------ I realise that. Just as you did not register any understand of my comment. Your original point was ill-formed and too generic to get the sort of answer you might have wanted. All I said was that the big difference between a person raped and an animal slaughtered is the fact that the rape victim does usually survive. This is a statement that condones neither and merely underlies one difference and to me it is important. A human animal may cut off another's hand, but I find the wanton death of an animal, which has no possibility to defend itself, worse.

03-23-2002, 08:36 PM	#396
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	spin: ---------- If life has any meaning to you then all life should. ----------- tronvillain: ----------- While that doesn't follow, I do value all life to some degree. So? ----------- I think my previous statement was also relevant.

03-23-2002, 08:52 PM	#399
Pomp Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Indianapolis area Posts: 3,468	spin, All I said was that the big difference between a person raped and an animal slaughtered is the fact that the rape victim does usually survive. This is a statement that condones neither and merely underlies one difference and to me it is important. All right, we're progressing, if slowly. Can you think of another big difference between a rape victim and a slaughtered cow? A human animal may cut off another's hand, but I find the wanton death of an animal, which has no possibility to defend itself, worse. You would honestly prefer that I cut off your hand rather than kill a cow?

03-23-2002, 08:54 PM	#400
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	tronvillain: -------------- I don't see that morals are anything more than reason applied to preferences, or "just gut." -------------- You of course have no reason to be posting here, given the subject. I realise that you have no conscious morals. And this is a problem for you. You still have to face "I just do" which of course should be quite unsatisfying to you. How much of the "I just do" is social training when you were too young to choose? I work on the notion that you are not inherently different from other animals. Perhaps one animal has one thing it can do better than others. Dogs have a great sense of smell. Most birds can fly. Etc. Modern humans have the capacity to organize thought through linguistic means. (Before this happened they weren't too different from chimpanzees and bonobos.) Humans are just specialised in a particular way like most other animals and have through that specialisation almost raped the entire planet through its stupidity, sending thousands of species into extinction, destroying the habitats of countless species. The human animal has exerted its own style of might means right over the whole surface of the world. Had some other species been dominant, then that would have been stiff for humans. However, we have developed the notion of moral behaviour, which attempts to impose a certain idea of justness or rightness of action. Even you have some unconscious idea of this ("I just do"). Moral behaviour is about right action. Right action doesn't make the distinction between humans and other animals. (As I hope we've seen, humans are just one species with one specialisation -- though many humans make some qualitative difference based on that one specialisation.) As you are an animal, why do you turn your back on other animals?

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