Ierrellus

Post Script

Amos, what if time is not linear?

Wordsmyth, the computer analogy does not work because we have no computer that devises its own software.

Bill, you might enjoy deDuve's Vital Dust, except for its concluding chapter. Even Nobel Prize winners make weird, irrational assertions!

Ierrellus

Wyrdsmyth

What does that have to do with anything? The hardware part of the computer runs the software program. That software has a one-for-one materialistic basis, just like our thoughts. That's the relevant part of the analogy. The 'computing' that computers do is analogous to the 'thinking' our brains do.

Bill

This is technically incorrect. We do have a "computer that devises its own software." In fact, we have lots of them. The word "heuristic" describes that class of computer system which devises its own software. Yes, there has to be a human-written computer program to start. But the heuristic part modifies the human-written part. Here is how the word "heuristic" is defined: What is the human mind but a tremendously advanced heuristic algorithm? I think that the human mind, as advanced as it is, can be fairly described in exactly this fashion. Thus, I continue to assert that someday it will be possible to have a computer programmed in such a way that it is indistinguishable from a human being in its mental abilities; or even further, that it is far greater than any human being ever thought of being, so far as human mental abilities go. What we must do, however, is invent ways in which to protect ourselves from the potential malfunctioning of such a great computer. (See: Colossus: the Forbin Project as one bad example.)

== Bill

Ierrellus

Dear Wordsmyth and Bill,

I was unaware of such computers. Thanks for setting me straight on that. IMHO, what the brain has over computers, at this time, in processing information is that it's sub-units (cells) each contain information on the structuring of the entire organism. We can clone from cells; can we do so from computer sub-units?

Has a computer been built that can duplicate DNA structuring of a bacterium?

There is much I don't know.

Ierrellus <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

WJ

Speaking of living while your head is cut-off, perhaps God is not only a mathematician, but an electrician as well. Why is it that the heart continues to pump without a brain?

In a strange but similar way, you have to wonder if all matter has an electrical charge, then the phenomenon of ghosts (and things moving around rooms) seems more plausible. Perhaps the mind-body problem/phenomenon of reducing consciousness to electrical impulses is not so bad afterall

Walrus

Bill

Ierrellus: So far as I know, nothing has attempted to model any cell at a very low level (such as the functioning of the DNA inside of the cell). Mostly, models of so-called "neural networks" attempt to model a few functions of the brain neuron cells. These are rather large "gross functions" rather than detailed operations.

=====

WJ: The last I recall from anatomy class, the part of the brain that controls the heart beating in mammals is in the "brain stem" (at the top of the spinal cord). Thus, I do believe that if a mammal's head is cut off, the heart will stop beating regularly; perhaps going into uncontrolled fluctuations, etc. etc., but certainly no longer exhibiting "controlled beating." I have no idea what the situation might be with non-mammalian species, but I do believe it is more or less the same with reptiles since that part of the human brain is sometimes called "the reptillian brain." Insects, on the other hand, can frequently be segmented and have the various segments continue on like they were still part of a viable organism. Thus, the parts of the insect body are pretty autonomous as far as their control systems go. My guess would be that the true dividing line is somewhere between insects and reptiles.

== Bill

Ierrellus

At present, my ideas are limited to an observable phenomenon in a single species; this is mind as a property of the human brain. IMO mental content can be reduced to physical activity. It is my theory that all thought symbolizes human genetic activity.

Ask a small child to draw a picture of a person. The child will draw lines and circles. Letters or symbols of all languages are depicted as combinations of points, straight lines and curves.
All designs from the Mona Lisa to the Hubble telescope are comprised of combinations of points, lines and circles. Written language symbolizes experential activity. Geometry involved in motion and distance in biochemical structuring of the organism involves point of origin, linear individuation of cell, organ, organism, and cyclic use of raw materials.

Ierrellus

WJ

Bill!

The only question of course would be why it is that medical science can keep a heart beating thru electrical impulses during transplantation... .

(Or even in dead victoms; involuntary movements... .)

Atoms, matter, electricity, ghosts, electrical fields...quite a mystery wouldn't you say?

Walrus

snatchbalance

Personnaly, I don't see any real mind/brain problem. Information can be stored, retrieved, presented, reiterpreted, etc., in many different ways.

Genentic information is stored in chemicals and expressed in the creatures that we see. Thier behaviors are capabilities start here.(How it all stated is a different question)

Perseptions are stored within the nueral network(and possibly other sites within the body), and expressed in all types of behaviors and mental pictures(different/additional nueral networks? Maybe the same networks being utilized by other networks, but differently?) .

Binary code is stored on various sorts of media. It can be expressed as pixels on a screen, or in controling the fuel/air mixture to your car's motor.

AI may be developed, at best, because it will be developed by humans, to satisfy human needs, it may mimic human inteligence. With out biologic receptors, however, it will be something completely different.

[ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: snatchbalance ]</p>

Ierrellus

Walrus,

The human brain works on about 8 watts of electricity. If a computer were built to make all human brain associations, correlations, etc., it would be the size of Texas and ten stories high. THE THREE POUND UNIVERSE--Hooper& Teresi.

snatchbalance,

Modern philosophy recognizes no proven translation between mind and matter.

Bill,

Could AI profit from experiments of electrical signals sent through neurotransmitters? Does the latter enhance, modify or limit the electrical impulse at the site of the synapse?

Ierrellus