Ernest Sparks

Evangelical christians think their form of metanoia is the original form of conversion to Christ and has always been there beneath the glare of the official catholic church.

I think it is clear that most people, famous or otherwise, who die to this world are in Hell, if the evangelical interpretation is right (,or vanished waiting the general resurrection, where they will be condemned to hell). "Hell" means "rejected by God". Whether the rejection is justified or not is another discussion.

Maybe there is universal redemption, as the last movement of Mahler's 2nd Symphony says. Even Genghis Khan, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and the September 19 criminals will be found in heaven too. It's just another perspective. All will be understood in the face of eternity.

[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Ernest Sparks ]</p>

Daggah

I'm counting Christianity only - including catholicism, and I'm not necessarily counting born-agains only, or excluding born-agains, either. I wouldn't really be sure if I should count Jehova's Witnesses or Mormons, but let's assume for the sake of the argument that they count too.

Daggah

I wasn't sure. I knew I had seen his name on Positive Atheism, but I didn't want to get in trouble for being wrong.

Sephiroth

Don't forget the hero of the Scopes Trial, Clarence Darrow.

IvanK

Looks like it's still heaven for the climate, hell for the company . . .

Henrietta

Sagan wrote Billions and Billions while he was dying. In the epilogue Ann writes this:

"Contrary to the fantasies of the fundamentalist, there was no deathbed conversion, no last minute refuge taken in a comforting vision of a heaven or an afterlife. For Carl, what mattered most was what was true, not merely what would make us feel better...Carl was unflinching...our wondrous life together was ending forever."

babelfish

No, actually I'm quite familiar with that verse. About 20 years ago I was involved in a church with my Christian boyfriend, and being of an impressionable age, and wanting to please him, I too was "born again." I know what the term refers to in evangelical circles. It refers to a specific moment, when you say a certain prayer and invite Jesus into your heart. For me, it happened one night, as I lay in bed praying. For many, it apparently happens at so-called "altar calls."

I assert that our Founding Fathers did not feel it was necessary to have this evangelical or charismatic or whatever you want to call it, CONVERSION experience in order to enter the Kingdom of God.

I think they were too rational for that nonsense.

Hedwig

Pretty much all the great composers are burning. Not to mention John Lennon and George Harrison. Janis and Jimi are probably down there as well...neither of them lived a "good Christian" life. I'd sooner kick back in hell.

sullster

To rip-off an old song," If there is a rock and roll hell, then they sure have a heavenly band."

I will add that if christinsanity is right, then the christian god despises the human intellect. Such a god is not worth bothering with, so off to hell I go. Much more interesting minds there. To hell with heaven!

HelenM

Oh, ok, my apologies then for assuming you didn't know that.

Your clarification here was helpful.

I'd say I've seen plenty of evidence of non-evangelicals and non-Christians being irrational. It doesn't seem to follow that not being evangelical makes a person more rational.

Besides, being 'whole', to me, involves recognizing that our emotions are a valid important part of us. Whilst not letting them ruin our lives by giving them free reign over us .

A lot of people who think they are being rational are being anything but, in my experience...

Btw MTL I think Bach's place in heaven is generally thought by Christians to be assured!

love
Helen