Infinity Lover

I've personally never experienced something that clearly blatantly defies the laws of nature.

I know there are many aspects of existence that are of a mindboggling nature, and sometimes things turn out for the better that far surpasses one's hopes and expectations.

Those makes me realize what a marvelous intriguing thing existence is.

I also think the most rational conclusion is not to jump to premature conclusions. Keeping an open mind often means taking maybe for an answer.

And because I can't bring myself to believe with any God as described in holy scryptures, an alledged mirracle linked to a specific religion, kinda makes me suspect some doctoring and a hidden agenda. But that's the stubborn skeptic atheist in me.

Clutch

The utterly obvious evidence of my senses can be rendered delusive by means my six year-old could put together. Everything from visual illusions to the effects of psychoactive drugs can explain the vivid seeing, hearing, even touching, of things that just ain't there.

So what could I experience that would make it more reasonable to assume a 4-omni supernatural being than to assume that one of those delusive situations had occured? In the absence of an argument to the contrary, I conclude: Nothing.

Jackalope

A large number of the people going to Lourdes for "cures" have arthritis. Now, there are <a href="http://www.arthritisinsight.com/medical/disease/171.html" target="_blank">over 170 types</a> of arthritis and a good portion of _those_ are autoimmune. A lot of miracle cures for autoimmune diseases (arthritis, MS, type I diabetes, etc) are simply the disease tapering off for a while. Some people experience spontaneous remissions after doing nothing at all. And that remission can last for years. Or it can last a few weeks or months, then the autoimmune process starts up again.

This is why there are so many people out there willing to swear that the latest quack remedy has "cured" their arthritis. And then there are unfortunates like me who have a few years of remission, then the disease returns with such virulence that increasingly toxic medications are required to keep things in check.

You might also want to read this article on <a href="http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/placebo.html" target="_blank">spontaneous remission and the placebo effect</a>.

thebeave

What is the deal with crying statues anyway? Is this the best an omni-potent Xian God (who created billions of galaxies each with billions of stars in one day) can do today? Cause a few dime store Virgin Mary statues to cry fake tears? Methinks he's getting pretty damn tired or lazy these days.

Amie

I was thinking more along the lines of various cancers and tumors however I understand what you are saying. Thanks for the link

Family Man

Yes dear, but now you're assuming what is being held in question. Do miracles really happen, or do people assume that miracles happen?

People at Fatima claimed that the sun danced? Then why wasn't that seen anywhere else in the world? Isn't it more likely that heat, a presupposition of miracles, and mass hysteria produced a "miracle" than a miracle itself actually happening?

At Lourdes, are miracles happening there, or is it simply the result of a psychological lift?

And why is it that there is no documentation of a demonstrably impossible event -- something like the bus example in my initial report.

No, there is no reason to believe in miracles. It's much too ephemeral to believe in.

Amie

Hi Family Man

I think both.

ahh the unexplainable unknowns of a miracle

I don't think its more likely, however I understand how you would have drawn that conclusion...

Miracles are happening there. However there is also a psychological boost for some as well...

I don't know I wish there was. maybe there is somewhere...

I understand its just not a point of view I share...
take care~
Amie

Fiach

Miracles are events that we cannot explain by current scientific knowledge. Sometimes it is just that we have not advanced far enough to understand the phenomenon. Some things happen today that we can explain by science but in the past were called miracles. People having a convulsive seizure felt to be daemonic possession would stop seizing when a priest said an exorcising prayer. But nearly all seizures will stop spontaneously when the cycling signals stop the repeated cortical depolarisations. Now we know why, but in Christ's time they did not. So "daemonics" were obvious epileptics, who while seizing would stop when Jesus ordered Satan out. I am sure it looked like Jesus was casting out the daemons when the seizure stopped. Of course they didn't follow up with the fact that the poor chap had another seizure the next day when Jesus had left. It was probably concluded that the daemons had returned.

When one person out of 100 survives a plane crash, that is often called miraculous but it is not. It is mere chance. In similar circumstances, occasional crash victims do survive for mere physical conditions. Some people have shock and lapse into a coma with no pulse, no breathing, but are breathing small volumes. They were pronounced dead, and in the undertaker's shop, they awaken and sit up. It may even be what happened to Jesus. I have studied accounts of the crucifixion. He was on the cross a brief time while most lasted a couple of days. He lapsed into unconsciousness and unresponsive shock, no pulse, and was taken down. But once in the reclined position his weak pulse and weak repirations improved and over a few hours his brain reperfusion reached a point for consciousness, and he "resurrected." But he may have never actually died.

So, basically, I feel that there are no proven miracles. There are events that we cannot yet explain but that does not in itself prove nor disprove a God. There is no reason to assume that a God would intervene even if he could. If God was omnipotent, and knows a child has a terminal brain tumour that will cause horrid suffering and convulsions for 5 years before the pitiful child dies, but God does not "perform" a miracle it raises serious questions about God and miracles.

1. God cannot influence material events.
2. God can but doesn't care about a suffering child.
3. God cares but cannot help in the material universe.
4. God is a creator only. Deist view. Not even necessarily a conscious being.
5. God is imaginary.

We know that some people recover from illness and many do not. Are the recovered just lucky? Or does God choose only a fortunate few to convey miracles? Or is it an unanswerable argument?

If God exists he may or may not do miracles.

Miracles cannot be proven or disproven. And God may or may not be proven to exist.

Fiach

Biff the unclean

To make me believe I would need to see a real miracle. Something like the Virgin Mary 's picture in the burn marks of an over done taco, or other snack food.

hastalavista2u

&gt;Heck,if one is really seeking them,then they can find more 'miracles' in the trivial aspects of life than in the spiritual.
But unfortunately many seem to be oblivious to the obvious.
Maybe they aren't miracles,per se,but still can be questioned and analyzed.

Such as why do things happen in sports such as college football like the Army-Navy game,where Navy puts up 58 points,the most ever in the history of the series?
And why does Georgia outscore Ga.Tech(51-7)-also the largest margin of defeat in that series as well? And a total of 58 points.
Both games recently played in consecutive weeks.

And if Georgia would have kicked a field goal late in the game today,instead of going for it on 4th down,then the final score would have been
33-3,of course symbolic of the Trinity.
It's also strange that last SEC championship Arkansas played in '95,they also lost 34-3.
[BTW-Georgia running back 'Musa Smith's' name is Arabic for Moses.]

What about in the last game against LSU,when Arkansas won on a last second miracle?
The guy who caught the winning TD pass was from
ATLANTA,TX.--and by winning the game sent Arkansas to Atlanta,GA. for the game today.
[I could be mistaken,but the winning drive was 77 yards,I believe?]

Just strange coincidences...perhaps?
But for those few,I could probably come up with many more if I had the time.
Such as when Atlanta Falcons won last week over Minnesota in overtime.[30-24]
The last time they played in the Metrodome in '98,they also won in overtime-again with 30 points,in NFC Title game.
Also Mike Vick had 173 yards rushing(NFL record)
and 173 yards passing.

Point being,how exactly does one just casually dismiss these 'trivial' incidents,as I'm 100% positive is how atheists view them.
But unlike the untangible,unseen supernatural events,these can be clearly seen and understood.
Well,maybe not quite understood in the way they should be.

Take my member no.(7800) for example.
I didn't plan on being that number-i just signed up one day and landed right on it.
[BTW-78 is a lucky number for me.]

Anyway,point being is that I'm one wacked out dude who forgot to take his meds--
Seriously though,I know that's how i'm seen,but I can't help it if i notice things like this.
It's just too weird to ignore,and probably to mention here as well.
But then again most atheists don't give a damn about my reputation,so why should I--Christian or not??
I'm just human like you...I think?
[curious?-see profile-]

But unlike you,I am also curious to find the true meaning behind such mysteries,rather than in just being curiously oblivious- and making my own answers based on mere knee-jerk(excuse pun) reactions.
That's not to say you couldn't turn that quick 'reaction' into a thesis paper--actually it might be hard for some of you not to.
But being an expert in saying the same thing over again in 1,000 words is not the same as being an expert in discernment.
But before I digress further,I'll give someone else a turn to thoroughly debunk every syllabel i have uttered.

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: Theitist ]</p>