Radorth

You have the complete unedited works of Washington and anyone who claims to have seen him praying?

Rad

SanDiegoAtheist

Here ya go Radorth:

<a href="http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/gwhtml/gwhome.html" target="_blank">George Washington Papers at the Library of Congress online</a>

Do a search for the word "Jesus" - in the entire collection, it pops up twice - once in his Grandfather's will, and the second time in a copy of John Custis's will which was forwarded to him.

Cheers,

The San Diego Atheist

Buffman

Radorth

Most founders were against slavery as were most Christians in the north.

Prove it!

1. Which signers of the Declaration of Independence were against slavery?

2. Which attendees of the Constitutional Convention were against slavery?

3. Which signers of the Constitution were against slavery?

4. Cite the accurate statistical data and source you are using to claim that most northern Christians were against slavery? (Does this not infer that most southern Christians, as well as some northern Christians, supported slavery?)

5. Who was the first to introduce a cobbled together Alexis de Tocqueville statement into this discussion?

Radorth... November 02, 2002 03:35 PM

Alex DeToqueville noted:
"In the United States, the sovereign authority is religious...there is no country in the world where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America, and there can be no greater proof of its utility and its conformity to human nature than that its influence is powerfully felt over the most enlightened and free nation on earth."

6. Who exposed the de Tocqueville entry as less than accurate, and then provided the accurate source information for his own de Tocqueville quotes so they could be verified ...unlike those provided by Mr. Radorth from sources unknown?

BUFFMAN Nov. 3, 2002, 1:40 AM

Alex de Tocqueville actually wrote the following:

"One may suppose that a certain number of Americans, in the worship they offer to God, are following their habits rather than their convictions. Besides, in the United States the sovereign authority is religious, and consequently hypocrisy should be common. Nonetheless, America is still the place where the Christian religion has kept the greatest real power over men's souls; and nothing better demonstrates how useful and natural it is to man, since the country where it now has widest sway is both the most enlightened and the freest."

I went on to include the following to support my contention that quote context and knowledge about the authors(original sources) mattered a great deal.

First, do you know who Alexis de Tocqueville was? How old he was when he came to America? What year he came here? Why he came here? How long he stayed here and what he did during that time? Do you know when he wrote Volumes One and Two. Do you know who helped him to compile both volumes? Did you read what he had to say in Volume Two, Part One, Chapter Five? How about these little goodies from throughout his writings?

"There are religions that are very false and very absurd..."

"Religious peoples are therefore naturally strong in precisely the spot where democratic peoples are weak; this makes very visible how important it is that men keep to their religion when becoming equal."

"While I was in America, a witness called at assizes of the county of Chester (state of New York) declared that he did not believe in the existence of God and the immortality of the soul. The judge refused to allow him to be sworn in, on the ground that the witness had destroyed beforehand all possible confidence in his testimony. Newspapers reported the fact without comment."

Are these the comments of someone who would support the separation of Church-State? Not hardly!

7. If Mr. Radorth did not obtain his quotes from any of David Barton's writings, where did they originate? Mr. Radorth appears to be unable or unwilling to provide that information.

Thus my original evaluation of him as being little more than an argumentative and disruptive automaton troll of the radical Christian right is reinforced yet again. However, it is essential that his propaganda and lies not be allowed to stand unexposed for those who are unfamiliar with his spurious posting techniques and history.

IMHO, to allow them to stand unexposed would only lend support to the those who have posted David Barton's unscholarly history quotes to their home pages for propaganda and psychological manipulation rather than accurate educational purposes.

Buffman

Radorth

Did Washington ever mention Jesus and was he ever seen praying? Here's your chance to get a bow from Rad, if you can find the sources I have.

Here are some of my sources. S.D.A answered your "Jesus" query. And what does any of this have to do with David Barton and his trained parrots.

<a href="http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/gwhtml/gwedit.html" target="_blank">http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/gwhtml/gwedit.html</a>

<a href="http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/exhibits/hand/hist.html" target="_blank">http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/exhibits/hand/hist.html</a>

<a href="http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/project/orders.html" target="_blank">http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/project/orders.html</a>


The Washington praying at Valley Forge can be traced back to the biography written by Mason Locke Weems ("Parson" Weems)and published in 1800. In it he writes of a Quaker named Isaac Potts finding Washington in the snowy woods, on his knees, in prayer. The story that "Friend" Potts tells his wife, Sarah, about this scene and its effect on him is pure Weem's fabrication without any foundation in fact.

In fact, there was a Quaker farmer named Isaac Potts who did come into possession of a house in Valley Forge toward the "end" of the war. However, he was no where near that point in the winter of 1777. However, the full story was fixed in bronze on the Sub-Treasury building in New York City and the Pott's house was made into a shrine. It was even celebrated in verse. (B.F. Morris, "Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States", Philidelphia, 1864, pg. 297)

"In June 1903, moreover, the cornerstone of the million-dollar Washington Memorial Chapel, commemorating the event, was laid in Valley Forge; in 1928 the United States government issued a batch of two-cent stamps showing Washington praying at Valley Forge; and in 1935 a private chapel for the use of U.S. Congressmen was opened in the Capitol, containing, as its chief feature, a stained-glass window above an oak altar depicting the kneeling figure of Washington at Valley Forge. ("Not So!" by Paul F. Boller, Jr., Oxford University Press, 1995, pg. 31)

The rest of Texas Christian University's Professor of History Emeritus Boller's Chapter 5 is just as rewarding, as are the cited sources.

<a href="http://www.oup-usa.org/isbn/0195091868.html" target="_blank">http://www.oup-usa.org/isbn/0195091868.html</a>

Buffman

Alonzo Fyfe

Thank you for the vote of confidence. I agree that it would be extremely helpful to have a well documented/sourced book of quote errors available for quick reference whenever these quote wars get launched. However, I agree with one of your earlier insightful posts when you called attention to the fact that it really doesn't matter all that much today to what specific religious philosophy those men of the past claimed allegiance. What really matters is the ethical/moral acts of today that have proven themselves to be the most positive and productive for the survival, progress and harmony of all humanity...not simply a handful of specific true-believers.

Additionally, I promised my sons that if I were to attempt a return to a writing career, my first effort would be to tell the stories of my aviation career. They seemed convinced that others would find them as interesting as they had. I keep telling them that they only feel that way because they were close at hand when many of those experiences occurred...but not aware that they had. (i.e.: "Oh! That's why you weren't there for my birthdays/X-mas/ball games/hospital trips/etc.") The stories filled in items missing from their lives...and mine. Unfortunately, I have discovered that many of those stories are exceptionally difficult to relate to folks unfamiliar with similar circumstances/operating environments. That is why I wrote to your dad in the manner that I did. I felt sure that he was more than able to identify with my words.

And besides, it would be an enormous project for someone who types with only two fingers and has a personal hobby that he has allowed to sit fallow since purchasing this PC monster to help with it nearly seven years ago.

SanDiegoAtheist

Thanks Buffman - I was trying to get through to the UVa. site (which is more complete than the Library of Congress), but it was down earlier.

Most 'Christian' George Washington implications can be traced to Parson Weems. Odd, since Parson Weems not only never knew George Washington, he apparently never knew anyone who even KNEW George Washington.

Cheers,

The San Diego Sci Guy

(btw Radorth - you might want to look up what the minister of the Anglican Church George attended said of his religious beliefs after his death - the Rev. Dr. Abercrombie)

Buffman

SDA

If you haven't read through this, it is well worth your time.

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/franklin_steiner/presidents.html#1" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/franklin_steiner/presidents.html#1</a>

Several years ago, I went on the trail of the Jared Sparks-Nellie Custis saga. What a mess. Most of Washington's biographers were completely caught-up in turning him into the First American (Christian) Saint. Many of the most famous stories about him, that I learned as a lad from the history books, were American icon building myths. What is sad is the fact that those myths were totally unnecessary for Washington to have received his revered place in American history.

Radorth

I've read it I believe. If I'm not mistaken, it's the atheist's favorite second hand account of what Washington believed, not the first hand account which you intimate. But I realize you need all the help you can get. So ah, second hand accounts of what somebody else said about somebody else's beliefs is OK? I'll keep that in mind.

Actually, I never argue Washington was a Christian. I don't know. You need him not to be for some reason, therefore you are willing to believe he could attend church for many years in those days without ever mentioning Christ, saying the creed of his church, etc.

You are also willing to assert that if he does mention Christ, one of his secretary's interpolated it into a letter which he signed but did not read. The rationale boils down to "It just doesn't sound like George to me."

I am touched by your faith.

Rad

Radorth

I found this on the LC site. Tell me if this sounds like George to you.

"I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation, respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta of our country. To the guidance of the ministers of the gospel this important object is, perhaps, more properly committed. It will be your care to instruct the ignorant, and to reclaim the devious, and, in the progress of morality and science, to which our government will give every furtherance, we may confidently expect the advancement of true religion, and the completion of our happiness."

I read "it's so obvious that Christianity is the true religion that we don't need to say so."

Also note "to which our government will give every furtherance..."

Times certainly have changed. Perhaps now you'd like to change the subject "deist founder," again.

Rad

Toto

Rad - I gather it is hopeless to expect you to learn how to read simple English without imagining a pro-Christian meaning to it, but could you at least learn how to give citations? Do you know how to cut and paste URL's?

in the progress of morality and science, to which our government will give every furtherance,

Washington said that the government would give every furtherance to morality and science, not to religion. Progress in religion would follow automatically due to individual action, not to government regulation.

The letter you refer to is here:

<a href="http://www.churchstatelaw.com/historicalmaterials/8_9_4.asp" target="_blank">Letter from George Washington to the leaders of the Presbyterian Church in Northern New England.</a>

We see it is fairly typical of the founder's views: that if there is any value to religion, it should be a matter of private enterprize, with no government subsidy.

You notice that Washington, like the deists, does not refer to Lord Jesus Christ. He uses indirect terms for god - the munificent Rewarder of virtue. He is careful to lay on the flattery and stroke the egos of these important people. But that's it. He's telling these people that the Constitution will not establish the Christian relgion or mention Lord Jesus, and they should learn to deal with it.

Your idea that he meant that Christianity was so obviously the true religion that he didn't need to say it is close to a hallucination.

You might find this list of quotes from or about Washington to be of interest: <a href="http://exchristian.net/xtains/washington.html" target="_blank">Ex-Christian quotes</a>.

[ November 08, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>