Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Goliath · 05-21-2003, 09:04 PM

Soul Invictus,

Quote:

When choosing to entertain the discussion regarding the existence of God, your belief is either

1) Affirmative - that existence is present
2) Negative - that existence is not present

Again, you're absolutely wrong! Your quoted assertion failed at the bolded word "belief." You're assuming that I hold a belief regarding the existence of gods, when I've told you time, and time, and time again that I do not!!!! Why won't you listen?

Sincerely,

Goliath

Soul Invictus · 05-21-2003, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath
Soul Invictus,

I have probably not entertained you, no. However, I have destroyed your every argument in this thread.

Again, your dictionary definition is incorrect because it is inconsistent with the etymology of the word "atheist".

In some cases it can. This is irrelevant to your argument, however, as atheist still means either "not someone who believes that a god exists" or "someone without belief in the existence of gods." Heads, I win; tails, you lose.

Correct! Now, if you could only realize that a lack of belief is not a belief.

Absolutely incorrect! The issue at hand is whether or not atheism is a belief. Since I am an atheist, and since I hold no beliefs regarding the existence or non-existence of any god whatsoever, my lack of belief is absolutely central to the discussion at hand!

Your arguments that atheism is a belief have been refuted time and time and time again. Why do you continue to reply when you have nothing new or interesting to add to the discussion?

Sincerely,

Goliath

What is the etymology of the word atheist then, Goliath?
Maybe I missed it. I was basing the term from "a" meaning lack. and theism meaning belief in God(s). If this is not the meaning of atheist, expound please. I continue to reply because you insist you have shot down my arguments, however, I'm wondering how so. You also abuse my quotes. In the context that I stated "The issue is not whether or not your stance on the existence of gods is neutral or if you have no beliefs in it whatsoever" this was differentiating between matters of fact and opinion, so your retort is non-functioning. Why have you failed to address the issues I pose, except correct me on immaterial parts of the discussion?

:banghead:

Soul Invictus · 05-21-2003, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath
Soul Invictus,

Again, you're absolutely wrong! Your quoted assertion failed at the bolded word "belief." You're assuming that I hold a belief regarding the existence of gods, when I've told you time, and time, and time again that I do not!!!! Why won't you listen?

Sincerely,

Goliath

Define atheist. How about that?

Soul Invictus · 05-21-2003, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath
Soul Invictus,

Again, you're absolutely wrong! Your quoted assertion failed at the bolded word "belief." You're assuming that I hold a belief regarding the existence of gods, when I've told you time, and time, and time again that I do not!!!! Why won't you listen?

Sincerely,

Goliath

I think I know how to handle this here.

1) There are people who believe there is a God and that God exists.

2) There are those that do not believe there is a God, thus also they do not believe in God's existence.

3) Man does not know that God exists, nor can God be proven, thus God is not a matter of fact
4) This makes any discussion about God and his/her purported existence purely matters of opinion

1) Do you wish to entertain the existence of deities? If not than you would not be associated with those parties in my no. 2, correct?

2) I want to forwardly ask place this scenario.

I am asking you do you know that God(s) exist.
I then ask you do you believe that God(s) exist.

Are these functional questions for you or are they invalid?

Goliath · 05-21-2003, 09:27 PM

Soul Invictus,

Quote:

Define atheist. How about that?

Simplicity itself: An atheist is one who does not believe that any gods exist.

Note that this includes strong atheists (those who believe that no gods exist). You--like many people--keep confusing atheism with strong atheism.

Quote:

What is the etymology of the word atheist then, Goliath?

"a" meaning "without," and "theos" meaning "belief in the existence of a god."

Quote:

I was basing the term from "a" meaning lack. and theism meaning belief in God(s).

This also suffices. Note that I also lack belief in the existence of gods. I also lack belief in the nonexistence of gods.

Quote:

I continue to reply because you insist you have shot down my arguments, however, I'm wondering how so.

You have falsely equivocated atheism and strong atheism and I have tried to correct you on this point.

Quote:

In the context that I stated "The issue is not whether or not your stance on the existence of gods is neutral or if you have no beliefs in it whatsoever" this was differentiating between matters of fact and opinion, so your retort is non-functioning.

Irrelevant! The fact that I hold no beliefs regarding the existence or nonexistence of gods is essential to your assertion that I must hold an opinion regarding the existence of gods. Regarding the existence or nonexistence of gods I hold no such opinion, and I hold no beliefs!!! How many times do I have to repeat this before you finally get it?

Quote:

Why have you failed to address the issues I pose, except correct me on immaterial parts of the discussion?

I have addressed every main argument of yours head on. You seem to be trying to grasp at straws now. Tsk, tsk.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Goliath · 05-21-2003, 09:31 PM

Soul Invictus,

Quote:

1) There are people who believe there is a God and that God exists.

True, although redundant.

Quote:

2) There are those that do not believe there is a God, thus also they do not believe in God's existence.

Also true, and also redundant.

Quote:

nor can God be proven,

Unproven assertion.

Quote:

4) This makes any discussion about God and his/her purported existence purely matters of opinion

And I have to hold an opinion with regards to the existence or nonexistence of gods.........why? Oh yes, I don't have to because I don't!!! :banghead:

Quote:

1) Do you wish to entertain the existence of deities?

What do you mean by "entertain the existence of"? If you mean to evaluate statements of the form "If a god exists, then X" (where X is a propositional statement), then I need not hold any belief or opinion regarding the existence of said god.

Quote:

I am asking you do you know that God(s) exist.

No, I do not.

Quote:

I then ask you do you believe that God(s) exist.

No, I do not.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Soul Invictus · 05-21-2003, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath

Irrelevant! The fact that I hold no beliefs regarding the existence or nonexistence of gods is essential to your assertion that I must hold an opinion regarding the existence of gods. Regarding the existence or nonexistence of gods I hold no such opinion, and I hold no beliefs!!! How many times do I have to repeat this before you finally get it?

I have addressed every main argument of yours head on. You seem to be trying to grasp at straws now. Tsk, tsk.

Sincerely,

Goliath

I'm still waiting to hear what you say on matters of fact vs matters of opinion.

I've maintained that God is not a factual matter, so any discussion regarding this is by default an opinionated matter. You may choose, an affirmative stance, negative stance, or as you say no stance at all, however the subject itself (God) again is not factual, so it is all theoretical.

Goliath · 05-21-2003, 09:41 PM

Soul Invictus,

Quote:

I'm still waiting to hear what you say on matters of fact vs matters of opinion.

I've maintained that God is not a factual matter,

I haven't addressed your matters of "fact vs. opinion" because there seems to be nothing to address that is relevant to the argument. Prove that the existence of a god cannot be factually proven, and then it will be relevant to the discussion at hand.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Soul Invictus · 05-21-2003, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath
Soul Invictus,

True, although redundant.

Also true, and also redundant.

Unproven assertion.

And I have to hold an opinion with regards to the existence or nonexistence of gods.........why? Oh yes, I don't have to because I don't!!! :banghead:

What do you mean by "entertain the existence of"? If you mean to evaluate statements of the form "If a god exists, then X" (where X is a propositional statement), then I need not hold any belief or opinion regarding the existence of said god.

No, I do not.

No, I do not.

Sincerely,

Goliath

If there is no universal generally accepted definition on who and what God is, than how would God be proven? I'm curious. God thus far has not been proven because we have no working criteria to describe God to prove God.

As a side note, do you differentiate a belief from an opinion?

Soul Invictus · 05-21-2003, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath
Soul Invictus,

I haven't addressed your matters of "fact vs. opinion" because there seems to be nothing to address that is relevant to the argument. Prove that the existence of a god cannot be factually proven, and then it will be relevant to the discussion at hand.

Sincerely,

Goliath

What is the criteria for God?

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