Freethought & Rationalism Archive

NOGO · 06-22-2002, 01:34 PM

Farseeker

How can we qualify Atheism?

It is an ideology: "the doctrines, opinions, or way of thinking of an individual, class, etc."

Atheism is not an ideology. This can easily be shown. For starters it does not have a organization like all ideologies have. It does not have gurus/priests/rabbis/shamans like all ideologies have. It does not even have a founding figure like all ideologies have. Atheism does not have a bible.

You wrote ...
It held the truth and noone else: "There are no dieties; all other religions are wrong." Yep, that fits.

Wrong again. Since there is no official atheist church what is "it" in your statement above? Atheism asks for evidence for God and gets no answers. That is the basis for disbelief, unlike religions and their dogmas.

You wrote ...
It declared the dictatorship of this truth. QED or self-evident, Atheists dictate what is true.

Wrong again. Same as above.

You wrote ...
It declared all religions false and persecuted them. Ahem, Read the thread about how Christians are all insane and should be be locked up.

Which atheist organization persecutes members of religious organizations?

You wrote ...
The Soviet Constitution had a setion guaranteeing freedom of speech.
They didn't hold to it while they were in power tho.

Buddhism is a religion without a God one can say that they are atheists. However one cannot say that atheism is responsible for Buddhism not more than one can say that atheism is responsible for communism. It simply does not follow. By this logic then fascism must the responsibility of Christianity since it was born in a Christian country.

You wrote ...
Well, You allow it for now, but only because you are outnumbered I suspect.

The enormity of this statement ...

Quote:

Acts 22:22-29
They listened to him up to this statement, and then they raised their voices and said, "Away with such a fellow from the earth, for he should not be allowed to live!" And as they were crying out and throwing off their cloaks and tossing dust into the air, the commander ordered him to be brought into the barracks, stating that he should be examined by scourging so that he might find out the reason why they were shouting against him that way. But when they stretched him out with thongs, Paul said to the centurion who was standing by, "Is it lawful for you to scourge a man who is a Roman and uncondemned?" When the centurion heard this, he went to the commander and told him, saying, "What are you about to do? For this man is a Roman." The commander came and said to him, "Tell me, are you a Roman?" And he said, "Yes." The commander answered, "I acquired this citizenship with a large sum of money." And Paul said, "But I was actually born a citizen." Therefore those who were about to examine him immediately let go of him; and the commander also was afraid when he found out that he was a Roman, and because he had put him in chains.

At the time of these events Israel was a theocracy. This meant that the bible served as the law. Yes they actually stoned people for adultery and other things. The closest thing we have to this today is Saudi Arabia or Iran. Here Paul was going to be killed for simply expressing his beliefs. He was saved by the Roman centurion who arrested Paul for ... let's call it disturbing the peace. Paul tells the centurion that he is a Roman citizen afterwhich he is immediately released.

Rome was a republic. What that meant is that the citizens (not the slaves and everyone else) had rights. Paul had rights because he was a Roman citizen and these rights were protected by law. DOES THIS REMIND YOU OF ANYTHING? Israel at the time had no such thing.

Our laws of freedom and democracy come to us from the Greek and Roman pagan world. These rights were suppressed for 1000 years or more while Europe was dominated by Christianity.

This is the decree which silenced everybody for 1000 years or more.

Quote:

Constantine
"O ye enemies of truth, authors and counsellors of death -- we enact by this law that none of you dare hereafter to meet at your conventicles ... nor keep any meetings either in public buildings or private houses. We have commanded that all your places of meeting -- your temples -- be pulled down or confiscated to the Catholic Church."

Protestants had similar edicts.

Freedom and democracy returned with the move away from Christianity and religion toward a secular society such as we have today.

In view of all this one can see the enormity of your statement.

Copying an arguement is easy. making it stick is another matter.

[ June 22, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

FarSeeker · 06-22-2002, 11:15 PM

I'll reply to the first part latter.

Quote:

The enormity of this statement ...
quote:
Acts 22:22-29
They listened to him up to this statement, and then they raised their voices and said, "Away with such a fellow from the earth, for he should not be allowed to live!" And as they were crying out and throwing off their cloaks and tossing dust into the air, the commander ordered him to be brought into the barracks, stating that he should be examined by scourging so that he might find out the reason why they were shouting against him that way. But when they stretched him out with thongs, Paul said to the centurion who was standing by, "Is it lawful for you to scourge a man who is a Roman and uncondemned?" When the centurion heard this, he went to the commander and told him, saying, "What are you about to do? For this man is a Roman." The commander came and said to him, "Tell me, are you a Roman?" And he said, "Yes." The commander answered, "I acquired this citizenship with a large sum of money." And Paul said, "But I was actually born a citizen." Therefore those who were about to examine him immediately let go of him; and the commander also was afraid when he found out that he was a Roman, and because he had put him in chains. 

At the time of these events Israel was a theocracy. This meant that the bible served as the law. Yes they actually stoned people for adultery and other things. The closest thing we have to this today is Saudi Arabia or Iran. Here Paul was going to be killed for simply expressing his beliefs. He was saved by the Roman centurion who arrested Paul for ... let's call it disturbing the peace. Paul tells the centurion that he is a Roman citizen afterwhich he is immediately released.

Rome was a republic. What that meant is that the citizens (not the slaves and everyone else) had rights. Paul had rights because he was a Roman citizen and these rights were protected by law. DOES THIS REMIND YOU OF ANYTHING? Israel at the time had no such thing.

You haven’t seen or heard of what is happening to Christians even in the US.
The refined blinders you wear are made foolish by your own fellow Atheists. Even in their loathing of Christians, they dispute your foolishness:

QuadWhore:

Quote:

The republic of rome lasted for over 500 years. Despite their pagan religion they were the most free and by far the most successfull civilization on the planet. The roman empire that replaced it lasted another 500 years and managed to control most of the known world. shortly after christianity was adopted as their official religion the empire fell into ruin and was overrun by barbarians.

Technos [in response]:

Quote:

Clearly you aren't too familiar with the history of rome. Their's was a civilization where the few ruled over the many, as the gap between the rich and those in absolute poverty grew so that the rich would have the poor killed for even speaking with them. Those who were in poverty were often slaves and in late Rome they would be treated with increasing cruelty if they even so much as looked at their masters, who were more like the Christians of America's middle age than like the modern day pagans who are constantly taking part in activism for American equality. The only people free in rome were the extremely wealthy who owned property, and they were very few in numbers.

But what does Rome have to do with anything? They had plenty of abuses and ignoring of the law by agents of the government. All those spoken of here would likely have had to do was find the Centurion’s price and they would have gotten what they wanted.

Right now we have Freedom of Religion in the US because those supporting it out number those supporting “Freedom From Religion.” Lawyers, Judges, even the ACLU are trying to squeeze the First Amendment’s religious clause out of the Constitution. When Atheists out number Christians, and other religions, then our rights will evaporate.

Perhaps you should look up the French Christian philosopher Baron Montesquieu, and the use James Madison put the Baron’s words to. Perhaps a reading of Alexis de Tocqueville’s writings about his visit to America in 1831, or Gunnar Myrdal comments about Christians even in the 1940’s (“An American Dilemma:…&#8221

.

Quote:

Our laws of freedom and democracy come to us from the Greek and Roman pagan world. These rights were suppressed for 1000 years or more while Europe was dominated by Christianity.

This is the decree which silenced everybody for 1000 years or more.

quote:
Constantine
"O ye enemies of truth, authors and counsellors of death -- we enact by this law that none of you dare hereafter to meet at your conventicles ... nor keep any meetings either in public buildings or private houses. We have commanded that all your places of meeting -- your temples -- be pulled down or confiscated to the Catholic Church."

Protestants had similar edicts.
Freedom and democracy returned with the move away from Christianity and religion toward a secular society such as we have today.
In view of all this one can see the enormity of your statement.
Copying an arguement is easy. making it stick is another matter.

Once again the lie about “1000 yrs. Of Christian domination.” I suppose Atilla and his fellows were just out for a weekend stroll? These distortions are one of the things I am talking about. By vilifying Christians like this you are spreading the meme that Christians are a threat to all things civilized. You are simply showing the path you are following is parallel to the Marxists. Keep it up and your followers will be marching Christians into death camps by the end of the 21st century.

Constantine acted contrary to the teachings of Jesus:

Luke 9:51-56

Quote:

As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, "Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?” But Jesus turned and rebuked them, and they went to another village.

Acts 10:28

Quote:

And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Acts 18:1-6

Quote:

After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth; 2And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome and came unto them. 3And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers. 4And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. 5And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ. 6And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

Imagine that, an anti-Semitic, PAGAN Rome. These Jews rejected Jesus, and Paul just leaves.

Acts 2:9-10

Quote:

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile.

Acts 10:12

Quote:

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Acts 23:1 and 6

Quote:

And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.

But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Gal 3:28

Quote:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Atheism has no repudiation of harming non-Athists.

Please note: I am not saying that any Christian is or ever has been perfect, only that Jesus was.

[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: FarSeeker ]

Bree · 06-23-2002, 09:41 AM

Where do you come up with the idea that Atheists despise Christians? This is a delusion. I don't know why Christians seem to think this way.

I do not hate someone because they are a Christian. I dislike their attitude towards me and my partner. I dislike the "do you know Jesus" BS that gets thrown in my face - do I go around saying "do you know that homosexual sex is the best thing in the whole, wide, world?" now do I?

[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: Bree ]

NOGO · 06-23-2002, 07:14 PM

Quote:

You haven�t seen or heard of what is happening to Christians even in the US. The refined blinders you wear are made foolish by your own fellow Atheists. Even in their loathing of Christians, they dispute your foolishness:

Nice words, but only that "words". Why don't you tell me what is happening to Christians even in the US instead of insinuating. There is no such thing as "fellow Atheists" I have not come to atheism because of some other atheist who preached some common atheist dogma to me. You really have problem with this. You either have or are trying to push the absurd idea that atheism is a religion of some kind. It isn't"!

Quote:

QuadWhore:
The republic of rome lasted for over 500 years. Despite their pagan religion they were the most free and by far the most successfull civilization on the planet. The Roman empire that replaced it lasted another 500 years and managed to control most of the known world. Shortly after christianity was adopted as their official religion the empire fell into ruin and was overrun by barbarians.

What does this have to do with anything that I said.

Quote:

The only people free in rome were the extremely wealthy who owned property, and they were very few in numbers.

Wrong! Paul was not extremely wealthy and was a Jew. He was free and he had rights protected by Roman law. He says so himself as I have shown you. If I were you I would verify any opinion that I quote. I will return to this later.

Quote:

But what does Rome have to do with anything? They had plenty of abuses and ignoring of the law by agents of the government. All those spoken of here would likely have had to do was find the Centurion�s price and they would have gotten what they wanted.

Speculation based on ZERO evidence.

Quote:

Right now we have Freedom of Religion in the US because those supporting it out number those supporting "Freedom From Religion." Lawyers, Judges, even the ACLU are trying to squeeze the First Amendment�s religious clause out of the Constitution. When Atheists outnumber Christians, and other religions, then our rights will evaporate.

You are simply restating your opinion. You have not answered any of my points.

Quote:

Perhaps you should look up the French Christian philosopher Baron Montesquieu, and the use James Madison put the Baron�s words to. Perhaps a reading of Alexis de Tocqueville�s writings about his visit to America in 1831, or Gunnar Myrdal comments about Christians even in the 1940�s ("An American Dilemma:"

Perhaps you should answer my points.

Quote:

Once again the lie about "1000 yrs. Of Christian domination." I suppose Atilla and his fellows were just out for a weekend stroll? These distortions are one of the things I am talking about. By vilifying Christians like this you are spreading the meme that Christians are a threat to all things civilized. You are simply showing the path you are following is parallel to the Marxists. Keep it up and your followers will be marching Christians into death camps by the end of the 21st century.

Sheer nonesense. The 1000 years of Christian domination is documented history. The fact that you do not know or do not want to acknowledge this fact is unfortunate but does not change anything.

Attila the Hun? What exactly is your point about Attila? Attila attacked the Roman empire around 450 CE, he entered Italy in 452, he died in 453 and his followers were driven out. So?

Quote:

Constantine acted contrary to the teachings of Jesus:

Standard excuse.
True communists will also tell you that Stalin acted contrary to communist ideals.
Constantine was supported by all leaders of the church at the time. These are the same people who put together what you call the New Testament, ie the word of God. The edict was maintained for centuries where anyone accused of heresy faced the death penalty. The edict also served to destroy all non-Christian temples of worship of all other religions. This is the way Europe was converted to Christianity, by force!

Quote:

Imagine that, an anti-Semitic, PAGAN Rome. These Jews rejected Jesus, and Paul just leaves.

Nonsense!

Acts 28:30-31
And he (Paul) stayed two full years in his own rented quarters and was welcoming all who came to him, preaching the kingdom of God and teaching concerning the Lord Jesus Christ with all openness, unhindered.

Paul stayed two full years in Rome (63-65 CE) preaching to other Jews.
Paul was free to go about unhindered and with all openness.
Paul was a Roman citizen. He was not "extremely wealthy who owned property".
His father was a Roman citizen as well since Paul tells us that he was born a citizen.

So where do you see any anti-Semitism?
There were Jews in Rome in 65 CE. When were they driven out?

Acts 18:12-16
But while Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews with one accord rose up against Paul and brought him before the judgment seat, saying, "This man persuades men to worship God contrary to the law." But when Paul was about to open his mouth, Gallio said to the Jews, "If it were a matter of wrong or of vicious crime, O Jews, it would be reasonable for me to put up with you; but if there are questions about words and names and your own law, look after it yourselves; I am unwilling to be a judge of these matters." And he drove them away from the judgment seat.

As you can see for yourself the Roman proconsul of Achaia refused to get involved in religious matters.

So what happened?
In 66 CE open war is declared between Jews and Romans. This is just a year after the two years that Paul says he spent in Rome. Jerusalem is under siege for three years and finally falls.
During this siege the zealots murdered most if not all the Jewish upper classes and priesthood inside the city. They escaped and took Massada for another three year siege. They all commited suicide.

During this siege Josephus becomes the personal friend of the son (Titus) of the emperor Vespasian. Joshephus wrote the history of his people. Where do you see anti-semitism?

If Jews were thrown out of Rome it was not for their religious beliefs. It was political.
Since Paul preached to Jews in Rome as late as 65 CE and war started in 66 CE I would think that if Jews were thrown out of Rome it must have been after or during the war.

During the World War II many people in North America (Germans, Italians, Japanese) were arrested and placed in detention centers. Many of these people were citizens of many generations of the US and Canada. They had done nothing wrong. They were arrested because of their ethnicity. I do not condone any of this. I simply stated the fact that Romans did not persecute religous beliefs. That is the hallmark of Christians.

Quote:

Atheism has no repudiation of harming non-Athists.

It does not need it. Unlike all religions, atheism does not have a church or organization which tells its followers how to behave. So your point is invalid. There is no place where such a repudiation can be placed. Atheists are not held together by any book, dogma, nor any organization.

You really have a problem understanding this one. Atheists as a group are like the group of people who do not believe in flying saucers. Have you noticed that people who do not believe in flying saucers have no repudiation of harming believers of flying saucers. Shame on them!

You have in no way made a compelling case for Christianity's repudiation of harming non-Christians. If it were so clearly stated in the NT that non-Christians should not be harmed then why is it that no Christian country ever observed these rules.

[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

hinduwoman · 06-24-2002, 06:57 PM

Once again,
Atheism do NOT preach anything. The only 'doctrine' is there is no God.
How does this equate with taking away private property, or killing people because they protest against dictatorship? <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

lpetrich · 06-27-2002, 01:29 AM

I think that FarSeeker is projecting his fundyism onto us freethinkers; many Xian fundies show very little sign of having any imagination.

Something that happens with other creeds also, it must be said. My mother once knew someone believed that the movies "Star Wars" and "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" were literal history that had taken place in their creators' previous reincarnations.

FarSeeker · 06-28-2002, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hinduwoman:
Once again,
Atheism do NOT preach anything. The only 'doctrine' is there is no God.
How does this equate with taking away private property, or killing people because they protest against dictatorship? <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

That is right. It doesn't uphold freethinking, freedom of any type, or morality, or ethics, or any virtue.

I am noting that you don't call yourselves Humanists, or moralists, or anything Positive. You ONLY call yourselves Atheists; setting youselves only AGAINST those that hold that there is a diety/ies. The example being that the Soviets and the PRC had/have laws giving their people Freedom of Religion, they either don't mean what any honest person in America would call Freedom -- or they never really intended to uphold the laws.

As for your web article HW, I seem to remember the Soviets using third world countries newspapers to publish articles that claimed that the U.S. created the HIV to destroy this or that population. I question the reliability of your source.

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: FarSeeker ]

hinduwoman · 06-29-2002, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FarSeeker:


That is right. It doesn't uphold freethinking, freedom of any type, or morality, or ethics, or any virtue.

I am noting that you don't call yourselves Humanists, or moralists, or anything Positive. You ONLY call yourselves Atheists; setting youselves only AGAINST those that hold that there is a diety/ies. The example being that the Soviets and the PRC had/have laws giving their people Freedom of Religion, they either don't mean what any honest person in America would call Freedom -- or they never really intended to uphold the laws.

As for your web article HW, I seem to remember the Soviets using third world countries newspapers to publish articles that claimed that the U.S. created the HIV to destroy this or that population. I question the reliability of your source.

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: FarSeeker ]

Look every atheist has his own personal philosophy. you can end up by being like Mao or like Hume. It depends not on atheism, but on the temperament.

If you doubt the reliablity of the newspapers I have quoted, you must also doubt the reliability of the original accusations which were printed in the newspapers.
Also the charges were refuted by the Minority comission in many cases, which does not have a hindu on board. It was the Christian member who was most active and for that he got threatened by church authorities!

NOGO · 06-30-2002, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Farseeker
You ONLY call yourselves Atheists; setting youselves only AGAINST those that hold that there is a diety/ies.

Absurd statement. While there may be atheists who sole purpose is to be AGAINST believers that is certainly not the reason for the existance of atheism.

If you were part of a forum on flying saucers or astrology you would probably call yourself a "non-believer". This would not make you a negative person who simply opposes.

Nobody discusses flying saucers these days but back in the sixties and seventies it was a hot subject. I have read several books on it and came to the conclusion is there simply was not enough evidence for me to believe that we were actually visited by any little green men from mars. Today after about 50 years of "listening" for signals from space some scientists are begining to say that life in the universe may be a rare thing.

Personally if it were ever proven that we are alone in the universe I would have to reconsider ... everything!

You seemed to have forgotten to answer my previous post.

NOGO

[ June 30, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

sbaii · 07-02-2002, 07:16 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NOGO:
[QB]

Absurd statement. While there may be atheists who sole purpose is to be AGAINST believers that is certainly not the reason for the existance of atheism.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
AAll of Far Seekers posts are typical of fundies who put everyone on the defensive in order to avoid dealing with the mounds of evidence against fundamentalist religion compiled by social scientists. It's just a smoke screen.

For instance:
The Guttmacher Instit. in a 2000 survey found a high correlation between states with lots of fundies and the top teen pregnancy rates. (Reported by ABC News and online)

Southern CHristian ministers upheld slavery for
"African Am. physical and spiritual needs". Alan Brinkley, Am. History:A Survey, Vol 1 to 1877

Bob Jones III: "THe Negro is best when he serves at the table"...www.nobojo.com/minorities.html

Franklin and Heaatherly reported that fundamentalism correlated highly with authoritarian personalities and was a stron predictor of racism, homophobia, ethocentrism, and punitiveness. The Humanist, Sept. 1. 1997

Hunsberger found a strong relationship between
fund. religion and prejudice. "Religion and Prejudice", J. of Soc. Issues,51, 1995

Steve Chapman reported on the high rate of church-goin and murder in La. "Praise the Lord, Pass the Ammo", Chicago Trib., 4 July 2000

Martin E. Marty reported that church crime has gone from $300,000 to $3 Billion in 1990 (1000%)
with predictions for higher costs in the coming decades as people use the pulpit to cash in.
"Crime Data", The Christian Century, 5 June 2001

Skipp Porteous reported on the fundie ties to these private militias. www. ifas.orf/fw/9605/militia.html

Operation Rescue Pres. Flip Benham:" THe Supreme COurt is not supreme." CHristian TOday, 28 APril 1997

Matthe Trewhalla, leader of Missionaries to the Preborn at the WI COnvention of US Taxpayers Party 1994, encouraged churches to form militias, and parents to "buy each child an SKS rifle and 500 rounds of ammunition." W. CHester Ccolaition for Legal Abortion Inc., Coalition Online, 24 June 2002

Don Lattin reported on Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols ties to the Christian Identity Movement in "Apocalypse Now", Common Boundary, May/June 1996

06-23-2002, 09:41 AM	#233
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	Where do you come up with the idea that Atheists despise Christians? This is a delusion. I don't know why Christians seem to think this way. I do not hate someone because they are a Christian. I dislike their attitude towards me and my partner. I dislike the "do you know Jesus" BS that gets thrown in my face - do I go around saying "do you know that homosexual sex is the best thing in the whole, wide, world?" now do I? [ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: Bree ]</p>

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06-24-2002, 06:57 PM	#235
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Once again, Atheism do NOT preach anything. The only 'doctrine' is there is no God. How does this equate with taking away private property, or killing people because they protest against dictatorship? <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

06-27-2002, 01:29 AM	#236
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I think that FarSeeker is projecting his fundyism onto us freethinkers; many Xian fundies show very little sign of having any imagination. Something that happens with other creeds also, it must be said. My mother once knew someone believed that the movies "Star Wars" and "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" were literal history that had taken place in their creators' previous reincarnations.

07-02-2002, 07:16 AM	#240
sbaii Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: big bad Deetroit Posts: 2,850	[QUOTE]Originally posted by NOGO: [QB] Absurd statement. While there may be atheists who sole purpose is to be AGAINST believers that is certainly not the reason for the existance of atheism. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ AAll of Far Seekers posts are typical of fundies who put everyone on the defensive in order to avoid dealing with the mounds of evidence against fundamentalist religion compiled by social scientists. It's just a smoke screen. For instance: The Guttmacher Instit. in a 2000 survey found a high correlation between states with lots of fundies and the top teen pregnancy rates. (Reported by ABC News and online) Southern CHristian ministers upheld slavery for "African Am. physical and spiritual needs". Alan Brinkley, Am. History:A Survey, Vol 1 to 1877 Bob Jones III: "THe Negro is best when he serves at the table"...www.nobojo.com/minorities.html Franklin and Heaatherly reported that fundamentalism correlated highly with authoritarian personalities and was a stron predictor of racism, homophobia, ethocentrism, and punitiveness. The Humanist, Sept. 1. 1997 Hunsberger found a strong relationship between fund. religion and prejudice. "Religion and Prejudice", J. of Soc. Issues,51, 1995 Steve Chapman reported on the high rate of church-goin and murder in La. "Praise the Lord, Pass the Ammo", Chicago Trib., 4 July 2000 Martin E. Marty reported that church crime has gone from $300,000 to $3 Billion in 1990 (1000%) with predictions for higher costs in the coming decades as people use the pulpit to cash in. "Crime Data", The Christian Century, 5 June 2001 Skipp Porteous reported on the fundie ties to these private militias. www. ifas.orf/fw/9605/militia.html Operation Rescue Pres. Flip Benham:" THe Supreme COurt is not supreme." CHristian TOday, 28 APril 1997 Matthe Trewhalla, leader of Missionaries to the Preborn at the WI COnvention of US Taxpayers Party 1994, encouraged churches to form militias, and parents to "buy each child an SKS rifle and 500 rounds of ammunition." W. CHester Ccolaition for Legal Abortion Inc., Coalition Online, 24 June 2002 Don Lattin reported on Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols ties to the Christian Identity Movement in "Apocalypse Now", Common Boundary, May/June 1996

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