Gurdur

well, I should stick to my word, but just to repeat myself.

Optional

Mmmm.... We'll have to agree to disagree here, methinks. If a culture is really complex, then it follows that it will be VERY difficult for any outside observer to know and understand ALL of it. Said outside observer can only catch the high points. And sometimes it is the deep stuff, the stuff that is really only knowable by being born into a culture, that determines what actually happens in the culture. *shrug* Such is my belief anyway.

Agreed.

That's entirely possible, however, ya gotta admit that for the last century or so, the US had had MUCH more immigration than just about anywhere... It is the place where the streets are paved in gold, the place where any boy can grow up to be president, etc etc and so on. Anybody around the world who ever wanted a new and better start thought of America as their goal.

Now, it's no longer like that as most have seen through the old myths and propoganda by now, and I doubt it will ever be like that again... Or at least for the foreseeable future, given the WONDERFUL reputation our leaders have given us lately, but for a while there, a good long while, it most definitely WAS.

Again, I'm unfamiliar with Canadian culture, so I can't really comment on that yea or nay. I'm just sayin that for a good long while, the entire world poured in through our borders, and they're still here...

Well, yeah, but (if I'm understanding what you're referencing here) it's not really the same, because, well, each 'wave' of english 'immigration' actually consisted of pretty much one culture invading, conquering, ruling, and being absorbed into another culture, for the most part.

Well, I wouldn't really include the EU in a discussion like this yet. So far, they're really only a fairly close economic alliance of sovereign nations... Not a nation in itself. Give it a couple decades, we'll see if it becomes the United States of Europe eventually...

Well, I would never say without qualification that the US is MORE complex than ALL other nations, or even more complex than ANY other nation. However, compare the US to some country that has a relatively homogenous culture. Now, it may be that the culture is very very complex, but it IS the case that once you understand this culure, you understand the country. The US may have less complex subcultures, but it is NOT the case that if you understand the culture of, say, Maine, you also by default understand the culture of, say, Georgia. That's what I mean by 'more complex' than a lot of countries.

As far as the immigration deal, I would submit that the US had had MORE immigration from MORE DIVERSE populations in LESS OVERALL TIME than most other nations on earth. I don't have any hard numbers to back that up, so it's entirely possible I'm wrong, but that's the way it seems to me.

The simple fact of immigration occuring in a country is not enough of a measure, IMV. It's also, like I said, where the immigration is from, and the time period the country has had to adjust to the new immigrants.

No, but when you put it all together and stir, that IS uniquely American. As far as your nutshell goes... I actually quite like what you wrote below, the cult of the individual. THAT is most definitely America in a nutshell.

Aha, I see what you're getting at here, and I agree. It is one of the very good things about america, IMHO, as well as being one of the very bad things about america.

I can agree with that.

-me

Optional

Hmmm.... Well, maybe that's something that is more obvious from outside the system. Or maybe it's just outside my own scope of experience... My circle of friends has always been rather, well, odd. 'Normal' has always been an insult amongst the people I've known, is what I'm saying. Perhaps it's a valid cultural observation that the American Dream is more notable these days for being something NOT to attain, or maybe it's just a comment on the kind of people I hang out with. *shrug* Dunno.

Well.... Fair enough, I guess. The point I was trying to make was that english being the only official language is not really a valid means of judging complexity, for the simple reason that ONE WAY of looking at the whole language deal is that our society is SO diverse that if we releaxed the one-official-language standard, the whole country would swiftly resemble a historical reenactment of the Tower of Babble, if you see what I'm saying.

Yes, well, it is certainly true that calm, measured, non-zero-sum style arguing is almost always more constructive than slogan slinging and fact inventing, however, it is not NEARLY as much FUN. Trampling your enemies beneath your sandals is just so much more satisfying than actually forming a valid consensus... Sometimes anyway

Yeah, I hear dat. The primary reason I got involved here, however, was to argue with Jat, and he seems to demand a more confrontational style of argument, ya know?

-me

Optional

Not agreeing with owillikie here, just pointing out that this right here is an example of cultural difference 'tween americans and europeans.

The fact that neonazism is illegal in Germany actually IS, to american eyes, evidence that Germany IS more authoritarian and tolerant of authoritarianism than the States.

It is wrong to outlaw political parties. It smacks of thought control... Trying to legislate what one can and cannot believe. Everybody has the right to believe whatever the heck they want to. They also have the right to agitate politically for their views. They do NOT have the right to infringe on the rights of others because of those beliefs.

The same old argument I've seen here before... Everone has the right to BE racist, noone has the right to ACT racist.

Or at least, so it seems through american eyes.

-me

Luiseach

I see the issue differently...being either an insider or an outsider doesn't guarantee an ability to understand anything. One can either grasp complexity, cultures, or anything at all, or one cannot.

Slight correction here, if I may...'America is the place where it is often claimed that the streets are paved in gold, etc....'. America represents the hope for a better life; it doesn't necessarily guarantee a better life. In America, people have the right to the pursuit of happiness, not happiness itself.

Well, it's America for me in a nutshell, anyway... ;-)

Gurdur

After 3 years on this board, I'm only too well aware of all that.
However, since I am trying hard not to be destructively critical and utterly sarcastic, I will not give my opinion of "american eyes".

I will point out it's a classic "Heads I win, tails you lose" argument from the Americans here.
E.g.
If Germany bans the Nazis, Germany is therefore authoritarian

If Germany doesn't ban the Nazis, it's because Germany tolerates authoritarianism.