paul30

One salient fact of history is that the intermixing of cultures always produces fertility and progress.

The Christians in the 11th and 12th centuries believed they were recapturing the holy land for their faith; what they actually ended up doing was bringing back a superior culture--Islam, and the knowledge of ancient Greece--and beginning the Renaissance in Europe.

Cultures usually resist mixing; but mixing almost always has positive results.

trillian

Brighid,

All due respect to your moderation, I was in fact directly addressing the question posed by megadave:

"If the prom in Georgia was "racist", how are the celebrations at these various universities not?"

Perhaps I should have added that today I don't think the university events are "morally" wrong, but the separate prom can be viewed as having moral implications. I thought I implied as such and gave my reasons. Diversity is still a goal with or without affirmative action.

trillian

brighid

I am sorry, but it appeared to me that you were discussing Affirmative Action more directly and hence my response. Upon rereading your initial post, as well as your latest response it appears I misread your statements and therefore I retract my statement. Accept my apologies.

Brighid

Carolina

Yes, cultural mixing is godd, if one culture is not considered superior to the other. What happens a lot of times is that when two cultures are in conflict, silently, one culture is judged "inferior" and the other "superior". Look at the colonizations all over North, Central and South America. What happened to the culture and knowlege of the original owners of all these lands? I guess we already know the answer for that rhethorical question.

And that is why today there is a silent segregation on schools. People just prefere to live this way because they want to remain attached with their heritages, their original culture. Mixing is good but also painful.

Why would a chicano all of a sudden dance black music? Why would a black couple dance country music? It's not gonna happen. Each ethnical group has its own charachteristics and because it seems impossible to break these cultural barreers, the best solution is a common-sense segregation.

Is this right? I don't think so, but that's what's happening today. Of course people should have good sense and stop this kind of behavior, but who's gonna stand for it?

auto-da-fe

IOW you believe, Carolina, that basically there is a certain amount of self-imposed segregation on both sides of the race war, and no one wants to change it because it is comfortable and familiar?

This is sort of my belief as well, and I don't think it is going to change any time soon. As long as everyone continues to focus on and label each other, nothing is going to change. There has to come a time in humanity that we realize that we are all the same race, and the color of your skin, or shape of your eyes is as ambigous as you can get when distinguishing someone from someone else. Just about everyone is guilty of labeling. Most don't even realize it. Why is there a need to refer to someone as African-American (or even black)? Why not refer to them by name, or rank, or professional moniker, or something other than "You know, that one black guy", or "The white dude over there".

Roles in life are important, but I think that way too much emphasis is placed on the "roles" that each of us play in the race issue. How many whites hate blacks, or blacks hate whites, simply because that is what they think they are supposed to do based on their upbringing. The parentage teaches it everyday. Biggotry is second nature to someone who has spent a lifetime around it. There is going to have to be a generation that says no more. From this point on I will not teach my kids to be biggots, and I will not let them teach theres. I have always sort of thought that the so-called Gen-X'ers would be the ones to accomplish this. There (our) mentality is just right for it.

We have to stop it from continuing forward, not dwell on the past. Everyone knows about the history of America. Everyone knows about slavery, and chinease camps, and segregation, and civil rights. Yes, it is important to learn about these things, and understand why they were wrong, but it does not have to become the focus of your racial context.

brighid

Because hip-hop has a great beat?? A chicano isn't confined to simply liking Latin music anymore then I am confined to liking Polka because I am Polish (and I DON'T like Polka!) There are plenty of black people who also enjoy country music, and even more who don't like "rap" the so called "black music." So I would disagree that with your conclusion that "it's not gonna happen" because it is happening all the time. The fact that my very white, very rural, granola type mother in law can tell the difference between Tu Pak (and can pronounce it correctly and not say Two Pack Shaker) and Dr. Dre is but one example. Her son, my husband is blond haired, blue eyed and is "down" with black culture (and the sistas absolutely adore my husband.) I could go on ad infinitum.

People do self-segregate and most people are going to feel more comfortable around others who share the same background and experiences. I think that is natural. Although I speak German (not well anymore however) and visiting Germany with my son I felt most comfortable around other American's, or Germans who spoke English well, but I made it a point to experience things that were uncomfortable and immerse myself in local culture and customs.

MegaDave is not likely to feel comfortable around my group of acquaintances, not because he is a bad person or because my friends are bad people, but because we share different experiences. However, that doesn't mean each cannot learn to appreciate the others differences. I personally think that is key to improving racial, ethnic, religious and cultural differences.

I find it interesting (and I am going to confine my comments to white and black for this part of the discussion) that white people don't see themselves (or the whole of caucasian society) in a negative way because some white people act like red-necks, are members of the KKK, rob grocery stores, murder, or commit other crimes. White society isn't viewed as "violent, lazy,etc." because of these people. However, many white people hold views that "blacks" or more commonly referred to as "those people" or "them" are culturally inferior (lazy, don't value education, more violent, etc.) because they have experienced some people who also happen to be black that fit that stereotypical bill.

I would say it is because white people naturally have broader experiences with people like themselves and they know that all white people aren't hillbilly, racist, redneck, drunk, criminals because some white people (as commonly seen on Cops, or Jerry Springer) are this way. Yet, they will categorize blacks to be this way (despite there being plenty of examples to the contrary) as being less then, less qualified, etc, etc. because of their narrow experience with black culture (which isn't limited to gangsta rap, the Source awards, or John Singleton movie characters.)

I have personally found that the more I interact with people of different cultures, ethnic and religious backgrounds the more difficult it is for me to view them in stereotypical kinds of ways. The myths are easily dispelled.

We purposefully chose to move to a community that is very diverse. There are more then 90 different languages spoken amongst the children in my son's school. There is not a day that goes by that we don't encounter black, Hispanic, Asian, European, Middle Eastern, Muslim, Hindu, Christian, etc. people. I didn't want my son growing up in an ethnically, or culturally homogenous environment. There just aren't the divisions in our neighborhoods. We also have a sizeable gay population (about 10%).

Unlike my parents my children won't grow up hating, or fearing those who are different then them. They won't believe the myth's and the ignorant steroetypes, although they may very well fall victim to people who can't see beyond the color of their skin and judge them as human beings first. I find that unfortunate.

If one is uncomfortable around a specific group all one needs to do is respectfully immerse ones self in situations that provide one with opportunities to learn and experiences those individuals as people.

I think things can change and I am not sure it is entirely a formidable task. I grew up in a very racist home and my father has held some pretty heinous ideas about non-white people. His views began to change (and have drastically changed over the past 10 years) after I gave birth to my biracial son. He loves my son with all his heart and it was exactly because he learned to love someone who black skin, and he began to realize that we aren't different. He also began to realize that the world will someday treat my son the way he treated "black" people and that honestly breaks his heart and fills him with shame. My father doesn't make jokes about niggers, chinks, spics, etc. anymore and when he occassionally makes a statement that is ignorant (like some kid is "dressing black" ... whatever the hell that is.) he is open to correction and that is a miracle in and of itself.

Brighid

auto-da-fe

imersing oneself in unfamiliar enviornments to learn new experiences i smost certainly admirable, but I don't think everyone will buy into that. for instance, I don't feel the need to immerse myself in with a pentacostal crowd to learn about them, when I already know that they are freaks (and I feel comfortable saying that having dated a pentacostal girl once upon a time). There are going to be lots of times when I am not going to put myself into certain situations just for the sake of learning. can you imagine me, a white midwesterner, on the some corner in downtown oakland trying to talk to anyone black? can you imagine the welcoming commity that would show up for that? and yet, as a white midwesterner, it is exactly the people on the corner in oakland that I need to get to know better, (note: I am only using myself as an example, I tend to be very open to everyone, and am not really judgemental).

I do agree completly with what you are saying about teaching tolerance to children, although my approach has been to focus on the fact that just because they look different, doesn't mean anything. more specifically, there is no need to think about tolerance, when the thought of intolerance has never entered your mind. I know it sounds a little different, but I truly feel that if you grow up just assuming that everyone is the same basically, then the physical differences mean very little, and you will look deeper, to the character of the person, before you pass judgement on them.

brighid

I would not recommend starting on a street corner in Oakland either But there are plenty of other alternatives that will expose you to the breadth and depth of black, American culture. If you are in the Midwest you should be able to African American Historical Museums, or exhibits at major museums from time to time. You could read books about American history, the Civil Rights Movement, and modern issues from a black perspective. You could attend a cultural event, often held in the summer months that attracts a crowd different from your own such as a Blues Fest, or a Jazz Festival. You could attempt to develop a friendship with a black professional in your neighborhood, or any other number of things that will help bring you to a closer understanding of the young man living in Compton, Cabrenie Green, or elsewhere in the US. The same goes for any other ethnic or cultural group.

I think that is an admirable approach and I agree that when you don't learn that people are different because of their background (which is a very humanistic attitude) and deserve the same respect, opportunity and rights as every other HUMAN it is very difficult to develop the level of intolerance and ignorance seen throughout every strata of American society.

We breathe the same air, bleed the same blood, we are all created when an egg and a sperm join together in our mother's womb, we live, we die, we love, we laugh, we dream, we succeed, and we fail. Our differences are superficial when it comes right down to it.

As to your comment about the freaky Pentecostals ... as much as I find that religion to whacked out I would say that it is wrong to judge all Pentecostals based upon your experience with ONE. I think everyone deserves the opportunity to be judged individually. I wouldn't want to be judged as some bitter, unhappy, lunatic, atheist because Madalyn Murray O'Hare came across as one.

I do understand how you feel, as I am not about to attend a Klan rally myself, but even those individuals deserve to be judged on their merits. Generally, they put their "merits" out there for all to see and it doesn't take long to determine the depth of their characters.

Brighid

auto-da-fe

this is part of my problem with people focusing on the past. while everything you have mentioned above is great and all, it will not go very far in changing a persons attitude towards blacks when compared to todays, more modern society. It can be difficult for some to relate black history to a modern black person, as there has been such a culture shift in the last 35 years or so. If you think about biggotry these days, you are thinking about the stereotypical black person, and those stereotypes change constantly. the modern, 21 century stereo type is quite different from the 50's version. so in this respect, focusing on black history may help you to understand where they are coming from to some extent, i don't think it is enough to trulyl understand the culture of the modern black man. it would be comprable to saying that you understand the modern white gen-xer by studying Elvis and his life. It can't be done in that manner.

now making black friends, or colleagues, there is a more promising path. I have tried to make as many friends as I can with no regard to the color of their skin. yet, if i do run across a black person that i don't like on a personal level (maybe because they are just plain annoying or boring, or ignorant, or whatever) i am viewed as racist by some. it feels as though (at least to me) that a lot of people seem to have a kind of all or nothing stance. you either like all things and people black, or you are a biggoted asshole.

brighid

I am not sure I entirely agree. I don't think the stereotypical ideas have changed that much, because many remain although today one might think of a gangsta rapper and not Buckwheat, or Sambo.

If you want to understand where a modern black person is coming from you MUST understand the past and present things that he/she feels effects them now. It is very important to understand the development of racism in this country because it helps you understand where we are today. We can't get away from the mistakes of the past by ignoring them. The Civils Right movement hasn't ended because Martin Luther King and Malcolm X are dead. Many of the same things being discussed back then are STILL relevant today - such as discrimination in housing, employment, application of criminal law and judicial justice, etc. and although things aren't as blatant as they were in the 50's and 60's those problems still exist for the modern non-white person. We cannot change the past, but we can learn from it, heal it and THEN move past it. American history, as taught in the public school systems is VERY incomplete and rather one sided and therefore I would recommend resting ones historic laurels on such an incomplete picture.

Edited to add: I feel that ignoring the past is much like attempting to treat the symptoms of a disease without attempting to discover the cause of the disease. You might very well be able to alleviate some of the symptoms and feel better, but eventually the disease rears it's ugly head again only to kill the patient later. If you do not understand the root cause and the history of a disease you cannot cure the patient. Racism is very much a cancer in the fabric of our society and ignoring it's origins will only serve to allow it to grow again, when it could have been eradicated to begin with.

I strongly recommend the PBS series I previously mentioned. It is very good and well researched (imo.)

Martin Luther and Malcolm X's words are still very relevant today!



That is unfortunate, but if keep encountering that it could be a sign that some self-reflection is needed. I have actually encountered a few black people that have claimed I am racist simply because I am white, and that is easily squashed and it is an opportunity to point out their wrong thinking. Just as I take the opportunity to point out the wrong thinking of any other person.

Brighid