DarkBronzePlant

You're absolutely right. Religious folk often try to paint a picture of the anarchy they think would result if no religion existed. But can you imagine the choas, crime, and murder that would result from people being excused from crimes based on their religious beliefs?

Shit, though, I could think of plenty of religions that I'd want to start...

ohwilleke

I don't think that freedom of religion is much of a factor in the decisions made with regard to Walker, I think it has far more to do with crimes committed. The problem, and it is not at all unique to Walker, is that this is a country in which the U.S. had no official military involvement or even diplomatic relations with any side prior not even to September 11, 2001, but prior to the later date when the Taliban failed to respond to Bush's ultimatum and he decided to launch a military offensive, October of 2001. Prior to that, the Taliban itself was not an "enemy" of the United States. Moreover, communication in Afganistan is not instantaneous. You can't just surf the web half a dozen times a day to get the latest news from the newswires. This is a guy who may have learned for the first time from not necessarily reliable sources that the U.S. had launched a war against the Taliban in early November, who was captured in a matter of a few weeks by other Afgan forces. Except for some part of the al-Queda group and some senior level people in the Taliban itself, there is no reason to think any of these people were at war with the U.S. they got attacked by the U.S. more or less out of the blue because extradition negotiations broke down. Moreover, the U.S. just barely declared any kind of war on the Taliban itself. We fought the bulk of the war based on a dozen aiding and abetting charges and our own decision that we didn't like the government in power there.

The war Walker was fighting in was a civil war in a country which the U.S. had expressed no interest in intervening in at the time. He was a low level soldier, not one who would have had a say in plotting acts against the U.S. He ended up as a prisoner of war taken by one of the Afgan factions in this conflict and it is unlikely that he encountered any Americans before he was captured. It isn't clear that he aided and abetted any act against a U.S. CIA agent -- he was in the yard, and violence broke out and he hid in the basement. Refusing to cooperate with the CIA is also not a criminal offense.

If he committed a crime, it was perhaps by signing up at all, but even then, I'm not at all sure that this isn't a valid renunciation of citizenship (certainly it would be a grounds for revoking citizenship). And, the statute of limitations is rapidly running on that charge which would probably not have a particularly serious penalty.

(BTW, I do know that you can unilaterally and intentionally renounce U.S. citizenship with a proper legal document, although I don't believe that Walker did do this).

Grumpy

First of all, no. It is my personal belief that the vast majority of criminal actions are done in spite of, or with indifference to, religious belief. That is, there aren't a whole lot of people aching to commit religiously-motivated deeds who are kept in check only because those deeds are considered crimes.

Unless you're talking about non-violent offenses, like zoning violations or disobeying fire codes. Or breaking the First Amendment by using the government to establish a church.

That's the key point in your ironic reversal: the religiously motivated "crimes" you describe are only crimes against a democratic, rights-oriented society. In another society, these are not considered crimes; rather than chaos, this committing these acts would be the natural order.

DarkBronzePlant

Nowadays.
Well, for one, I think firebombing abortion clinics might rise. Then when that goes unpunished, firebombing Planned Parenthood, followed by gunning down any medical professional who supports abortion. Maybe it would snowball from there, maybe it wouldn't. But I suspect it would.

Furthermore, one can use Christianity to defend many major crimes, if not all. Even those who aren't religiously-motivated would have a much easier time defending their actions than they would now.

I also find it difficult that you couldn't forsee the number of "adulterers" who are murdered by their jealous sig-others wouldn't rise fairly dramatically. I mean, technically stones would have to be used, if I remember correctly, but the bible does insist on their deaths.
No, that's what I'm not referring to
I think most societies would consider what I am referring to as serious crimes.

Grumpy

If that kind of misbehavior, or any of your other examples, are beyond my imagination, I'd like to think it's because I'm too decent to even conceive of such a possibility. Not to cast aspersions on anyone who can imagine such things.

I concede your point. However, I'm optimistic enough to believe that human societies, as a whole, have such an overriding interest in preventing chaos that your worst-case scenario would never transpire. Let's hope I'm never proved wrong.

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Grumpy ]</p>

Euromutt

Re: ohwilleke's points:
To renunciate your US citizenship requires you to do so at a US embassy or consulate, formally and in writing. Walker/Hamid never did so. Ergo, he was still a US citizen. The violation of the Neutrality Act stands on at least the point of Kashmir; arguably, a second charge applies for fighting with the Taliban against the Northern Alliance.
As for the charge of being an accessory to the murder of a CIA officer - he was aware of the John Spann's status before the prisoner uprising, since there is video footage of Spann talking to him before; his wounds were received as a result of Northern Alliance action after the death of John Spann. So he was able-bodied and able to intervene (which he failed to do) to prevent the death of a civil servant of his government. Hell, I'm not saying that's just, but then again, I'd rather see the Northern Alliance get to put this fuckhead against a wall and machine-gun him. He's renounced American society? Fine, he can take Afghan justice for all I care for the little waste of space.

Grumpy

Is it his fault the U.S. Embassy in Kabul was abandoned and boarded up?

Euromutt

Walker/Hamid came through Yemen and Pakistan first, and there are working embassies in Sana'a and Islamabad.

hezekiah jones

In case anyone is interested, the article cited by Ms. Hamilton is:

While we may not entirely agree with its conclusions, it contains a brilliant historical and philosophical examination of the free exercise clause.

abe smith

I believe that ,of this date 16 jan, Walker [whatever he calls himself} is NOT being tried for "treason" and NOT in a military tribunal. According to today's papers [ NYT & my local], he is being tried, or going to be tried, on a civil charge of doing harm/murdering other people. Sorry I read the stuff hastily; and haven't the terms too clear. It does look as if PREZBUSH et al have backed down from earlier position about what Court to try these alleged perps in. Perhaps get more clarification in a day or two...