Loren Pechtel

Their race was of no interest to the people doing it. They were targeting Democrats. That's why I don't consider it racism. To me, racism requires some racial motivation. None was present here.

Monkeybot

I see what you're getting at, but I still disagree. The fact that one race was deliberately targeted automatically makes it a racist issue, in my opinion. The motivation may not specifically have been "Let's disenfranchise blacks," but if they willfully targeted blacks that 100% racist.

Acinom

*leaping into the fray*

Yes, people stereotype, but I hope you're not saying that that's necessarily the right thing to do. I hope that you're trying to get to know people on an individual basis, observe how they are and make your judgments of them that way.

Asians are usually stereotyped as obedient, docile and hard-working. You're right that most in fact are like that, but I also hope that you tried to understand that that's part culture and part survival-strategy. Asians who had the luck to make it to the U.S. did it through hard-work. And if Asian immigrants had the economic status and the history that white Americans have in this country, do you think they would still be so hard-working?

You should go to an Asian country, get to know the people, and actually get to understand and see how they differ from each other. In China, for example, there are people who work their asses off for a chance to get out of the country. That's mostly the people you see in America. But there also those who are content with just being a salesperson at their local department store.

contracycle

Yes - oppression and expropriation

Why would you think that?

But this is a troll, I figure.

contracycle

No, not really - because when have you met anyone who was actually black? Or indeed, white?

Most 'white' people are pale pink, or light brown. Most 'black' people are one of a very wide set of shades of brown. Light brown, coffee, tan, fudge, etc.

Even more distressingly, 'black' is used to indicate 'non-white' with great frequency. It is not a description of a person, but a label indicating Otherness.

Blixy Sticks

Pot Kettle Black (no pun intended)

You label me as a troll in order to marginalize and dismiss me. By doing so, you prove the point I am attempting to make. It doesn't just apply to racism, it is woven into the fabric of our beings. It is reality. People label others in order to quell their insecurities. You are no different, as exemplified by labeling me as a troll.

Blixy Sticks

I do try to get to know people on and individual basis and judge them, accordingly. I raised some questions to open up the dialogue. The questions I raised are not necessarily indicative of my position. In fact, I'm not sure I have a firm, defensible position regarding this issue. We are talking about sociology and human behaviour and its multifarious implications. There are a great many forces at work here which makes it exponentially difficult to isolate and postulate. I do my best not to stereotype, but, afterall, I am human and do err on occasion, as everyone does. If you say you don't, you are lying to yourself.

This is a stereotypical comment, IMO. You are completely ignoring the fact that there are economic classes within the white race in America. Just because you are white in America, does not mean that you necessarily have an advantage over other races. This is no different than stereotyping blacks as violent and lazy.

Great suggestion, but I already surmize this. You're preaching to the choir. The context of my questions was American employers and their decision to choose one applicant over another based on race.

Monkeybot

Which is why, as you'll notice, I put "white" in quotation marks. It's not an absolute term but a general reference point.

Yes, thank you, I'm aware of this.

My take on "race" is that it's mostly a sociological phenomenon, not a biological one. I don't think it's controversial to say that you can point to general physical differences between different populations of humans. But I think these differences have been a) overemphasized and b) grossly distorted to fit ideas of "race." As you point out, each "race" contains a whole slew of differences, to the point where the term really becomes meaningless. As they say, there's more variation within groups than between them. And nevermind the interbreeding between different groups that's been going on since, like, forever. "Racial purity" is a pretty laughable concept.

So biologically, race is sort of a shaky concept. But socially, it's taken on a monstrous sort of importance. There may not be a legitimate reason for doing so, but people still look at those who are darker or lighter or whatever and make an issue out of it. People still look at someone of African descent and go "That guy is black," and use their concept of "blackness" to fill in blanks about that person's personality -- probably without even thinking about it. And, people do it to themselves as well! My grandmother is forever attributing stuff to the fact that she's of Irish descent.

So my point is that although race is on shaky ground biologically, it still has sociological importance (I'm not saying that's a good thing, mind you) and I think it makes sense to talk about discrimination against "blacks" by "whites" in that regard.

contracycle

Oh I happily concede that people apply lables. I dispute that there is anything 'natural' about race-based labels. Even if there were, it is not the labelling which is of concern, but the behaviour implied by the labelling.

But if you are that concerned about it, I will withfdraw the allegation. I recognise its use to stifle debate too, but I thought you question was obviously a leading one.

Edit: and incidentally I have answered your question.

contracycle

This I agree with. However, I think it is worth observing the way in which "black" is used to indicate "non-white", and what influence this has. Because it normalises whiteness and considers all others universally to be different in much the same way - what is important is their non-whiteness and nothing else. IOW, I allege that the presence of the terminology of "black" and "white" is indicative of the great extent to which it is socially ingrained. I do not think the phenomenon tyou described is an accidental property of the melting pot.