Freethought & Rationalism Archive

fatherphil · 08-06-2003, 11:23 AM

the problem you'll have, sakrilege, is explaining away the instances in the nt where wealthy and well to do folks were included into the sainthood and early church.

sakrilege · 08-06-2003, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fatherphil
... the instances in the nt ...

I know there are parables with rich characters but where in the nt are the sainthood references?

fatherphil · 08-06-2003, 04:17 PM

several members of the early church or believers (saints) were people of good standing in their society. the tomb Jesus was laid to rest in belonged to a guy who was pretty well off.

sakrilege · 08-06-2003, 05:04 PM

Oh, I thought you were saying jesus had said these people had gone to heaven. My response is that we don't know that these people are in heaven, or are there references I am unaware of. To be clear, my focus is on what jesus taught.

fatherphil · 08-07-2003, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sakrilege
Oh, I thought you were saying jesus had said these people had gone to heaven. My response is that we don't know that these people are in heaven, or are there references I am unaware of. To be clear, my focus is on what jesus taught.

so i think his teaching was that riches can get in the way of one's relationship and reliance on God.

sakrilege · 08-08-2003, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fatherphil
so i think his teaching was that riches can get in the way of one's relationship and reliance on God.

IMO, it is more than just getting in the way, unless there are other verses where jesus says it's okay to have money. I think it is clear that having money is not good for salvation.

Bree · 08-08-2003, 06:31 AM

Right, and it all goes back to "Give the evangelists more money! God says it's not right for you to have it! Put it to good use!"

fatherphil · 08-08-2003, 07:05 AM

Matthew 26

Jesus Anointed at Bethany

6While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, 7a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table.
8When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. "Why this waste?" they asked. 9"This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor."
10Aware of this, Jesus said to them, "Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 11The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me. 12When she poured this perfume on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial. 13I tell you the truth, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her."
----------------
the story above can be found in three of the four gospels and would seem to suggest that Jesus was not against the idea of someone being well to do or that being poor was a virtue in and of itself. it also puts forth the notion that it was ok for this expense to be made. He never busts nichodemas' chops for being rich, many of his parables involve property owners in a positive and respectable light. He would do healings for the well to do and the poor alike.

sakrilege · 08-09-2003, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fatherphil
the story above can be found in three of the four gospels and would seem to suggest that Jesus was not against the idea of someone being well to do or that being poor was a virtue in and of itself. it also puts forth the notion that it was ok for this expense to be made. He never busts nichodemas' chops for being rich, many of his parables involve property owners in a positive and respectable light. He would do healings for the well to do and the poor alike.

This still does not show a rich man getting into heaven, just rich men not getting hassled on earth. This doesn't mean they got into heaven. He clearly states that getting into heaven is impossible for the rich.

Rational BAC · 08-09-2003, 01:52 PM

BINGO

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08-06-2003, 11:23 AM	#31
fatherphil Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: burbank Posts: 758	the problem you'll have, sakrilege, is explaining away the instances in the nt where wealthy and well to do folks were included into the sainthood and early church.

08-06-2003, 04:17 PM	#33
fatherphil Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: burbank Posts: 758	several members of the early church or believers (saints) were people of good standing in their society. the tomb Jesus was laid to rest in belonged to a guy who was pretty well off.

08-06-2003, 05:04 PM	#34
sakrilege Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Folding@Home Godless Team Posts: 6,211	Oh, I thought you were saying jesus had said these people had gone to heaven. My response is that we don't know that these people are in heaven, or are there references I am unaware of. To be clear, my focus is on what jesus taught.

08-08-2003, 06:31 AM	#37
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	Right, and it all goes back to "Give the evangelists more money! God says it's not right for you to have it! Put it to good use!"

08-08-2003, 07:05 AM	#38
fatherphil Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: burbank Posts: 758	Matthew 26 Jesus Anointed at Bethany 6While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, 7a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table. 8When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. "Why this waste?" they asked. 9"This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor." 10Aware of this, Jesus said to them, "Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 11The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me. 12When she poured this perfume on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial. 13I tell you the truth, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her." ---------------- the story above can be found in three of the four gospels and would seem to suggest that Jesus was not against the idea of someone being well to do or that being poor was a virtue in and of itself. it also puts forth the notion that it was ok for this expense to be made. He never busts nichodemas' chops for being rich, many of his parables involve property owners in a positive and respectable light. He would do healings for the well to do and the poor alike.

08-09-2003, 01:52 PM	#40
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	BINGO

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