crocodile deathroll

If the question is mere referring to "a part of us" that does not necessarily mean a soul of spirit but a part of "physical material" and that could be a single sexual gamete passing on genetic information to our descendents. There has been evidence for this since Darwin and Mendel. My sperm is just as much a part on me as any other cell in my body.
Gene however do not pass on material but they do pass on patterns which is exactly what every cell in our body does though out our bodily life and that now includes neurons. I read some findings made by Seven Rose in his book the the making of memory that proves that even neurons or turned over many times over throughout out lifetime.
Yes I agree. The tired old "God" argument is just "epistemological putty " or the God of Gaps but when science find a natural explanation for phenomena like lightning of tornadoes then theologians have to formulate another new "God" theory like using God as an rational explanation for the big bang. Even this in the fullness of time be explained away scientifically like the current school of thought on quantum fluctuations.

crocodile deathroll

Ted Hoffman

crocodile deathtroll
I believe what we retain till death is what we can consider part of us. Is urine part of us? what about sweat? I dont consider urine part of me. The same applies to sperms. We produce sperms. The sperms contain genetic info. Its info about our biological attributes. When we have babies, the babies are not part of us but have some Gene similarity to us. We do not create the genes we inherit. The genes we inherit are a result of a hierarchy of sexual relationships extending into the distant past. We are a channel for the genes. We are vessels. We dont own the genes and the genes just use us as channels. Its the genes that can claim ownership over us (too bad they cant talk). We cant rightly claim "thats my gene there" we can claim "hey, that gene is exactly like mine" because ANYONE can receive the gene.
To me, we are like taps(faucets) and the genes, water.
Now a tap cannot claim that the water it lets out belongs to it now can it?
Neither can the tap claim that the special silver that was used to design it belongs to it.
Thus genes provide info for what our physical and other attributes should be, but are not part of us.Strictly speaking, "us" = our bodies + our minds(pesonalities).
Our bodies are not genes, but the result of genes.
In programming concepts, we are like returned arguments and the genes are the programs that return the values.

In a word, we are the messengers of our genes. Sex is the transmission mechanism.

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: jaliet ]</p>

crocodile deathroll

We are not only genes but we are also proteins, and they too are in a state of flux.
In my mind we are more analogous to a snap shot instance of the water inside the faucet at any one time, and the faucet is our clothes (if we wear the same clothes all the time that is). During our life while wearing those clothes, dead skin cells flake off, stomach lining breaks down and becomes waste, aging bone cells are replaced new ones, as well as even the very essence of our sense of self, the synapses neurotransmitters in our brains rapidly break down and excreted and replaced with others more or less identical which is what makes up our memory. The only constant then, is your clothes and the biological material inside them has been almost completely replaced within a period of 2 years with protein flux.
So it is really only the pattern of us that remains as we tap out of the great reservoir of our environment, but my clothes are not "me" although they will be rather on the nose by then, and we not really a things like faucets but a complex process or principle.

crocodile deathroll

Vitae

Marcel;
1. From my perspective; Since parts of me can be 'transformed' or can be 'dead' whilst I live (physical, thought (reason,emotion etc) and psychological) there is no 'thought system' that currently convinces me that it is not possible that parts of me can be 'alive' when I die.

2. Define 'goes on'. Define 'after we end' Good question. See 1. I would say there may be parts of me that 'go on' in some form or another DURING my 'existence' and after our 'end.'; Depending of course on your definition of these words.

3. From where it 'all' still is.

4. New questions and more of whatever of the past and the present with which I decide to incorporate myself. To a certain extent; I make my future but there are other variables; perspectivist ones involved.

5. Whoever we wish to 'be' or 'become.'

6. For me, to achieve 'freedom of will' through 'balanced thought', not at the expense of it. This perhaps will provide me with some form of 'wisdom,' however meagre. It is a continuing 'generational struggle.'

7. I will live 'to balance the scales' or 'my own individually inherited thought-will linkage patterns.' Exactly for the 'why?' you state;

quote Marcel; 'Because our thoughts govern our actions.'

But I would add a qualifier here and go so far as to state that this may not be the case for everyone.

OR for a less convoluted answer; see Sivakami's answer to this question.

You seem to be categorizing modes of 'awareness' with specific levels of question conceptualizations.

For eg; 'wish' and 'want' and 'desire' are all linguistic forms of a similar 'thought' (emotion +reason + other components).

What do you think Marcel?

Yes.

But surely how 'aware' one is depends on their thoughts/experiences. That is, their 'core consciousness', their 'extended consciousness' and its interplay with the environments within one finds oneself.

So one's 'awareness' may be limited or extended depending on one's perspecitve on one's evolutionary plane.

So what one is aware of, wants to become aware of, fears to become aware of, desires to become aware of; May not necessarily be what one 'CHooses to become aware of,' if one 'thinks' that 'our thoughts govern our actions.'

See above for 'how I think'

I agree that our thoughts should govern our actions. Whether in actual fact they do is another matter altogether and varies from one individual to another.
I agree

It is very interesting that you are giving number 8. Asking and answering a question on How everyone thinks? Quite a ticket indeed.

Are you certain both 'yes' and 'no' are certainties?

For whom?
To which questions?

Doubt is negative? Why?

Again, for whom?

We need to make choices in order to survive based on our current (in time) space-time co-ordinates BUT are these choices 'static'?

Do we regret some of them and think better of others later?

Don't our wants and needs continually change? (I'm not talking about basic ones here)


Yes, I agree. It is indeed a 'trick'. So now;

doubt is negative
certainty is positive
logic is honest
Interesting.

How can you keep things void of doubt, when one's void is so full of doubt and questions?

Is this what comprises 'honest logic?'

What if certainty is negative and doubt is positive? How would a living human being function then? Illogically? Nonautonomically?

Perhaps it is the doubt itself that is our certainty? For without it, we would not need to be aware or even to think responsibly?

Good luck to you too.

worldcitizen

crocodile deathroll

Lets assume they when one dies they stay dead , then what perception of time would one have. After all, if youare right you would be dead not for just 1,000 years, a google(10^100) years, a googloplex (10^10^100) years or even some unimaginable number of years 10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^
10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^
10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^
10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^
10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^
10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^
10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^100

years, but for an eternity (but I do not believe eternity is a number) but the last one I typed down is, and of that last unimaginable length of time, a hypothetical alarm clock goes off at the end of it and you reinvigorated back into the world of the living. Would you be aware of the fact that you were dead for

10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^
10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^
10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^
10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^
10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^
10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^
10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^100 years?

From my own perspective consciousness is necessary for a perception of time. as you would have no sentient awareness of
10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^
10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^
10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^
years

[edited for line length -- MT]

[ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: turtonm ]</p>

crocodile deathroll

For some reason the message was cut short and there were not enough line breaks so I shortened the number by a few exponentials and posted the message again from where I left off

From my own perspective consciousness is necessary for a perception of time. as you would have no sentient awareness of
10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^100 years if you are unconscious, but you would have sentient awareness of 1
second if you are fully conscious.

crocodile deathroll

Vitae

crocodile deathroll;

This is an interesting point that you bring up.

But one fraught with 'undefined territorial definitions' of what 'time' itself becomes for both an 'unconscious mind' and a 'conscious mind' and their connection or lack thereof to each other.

What about if you were 'partially conscious,' how would your sentient awareness of 'time' passing be perceived by your 'consciousness' then?

Do you consider yourself to be 'unconscious,' at all times, OR partially 'conscious' and partially 'unconscious' when you sleep?

How does your 'awareness' of 'time' passing change during these phases?


Is that title, 'The making of Memory' and the author Seven Rose or Steven Rose?

Also, does the author specify anything further about the neuronal patterns inherited and the variability /non-variability of the genetic material that contributes to them?

Regards

worldcitizen

crocodile deathroll

Our perception of time is not only an interesting point but a very important point, and it is only just beginning to be taken seriously. If something goes wrong with our brains like damage to the basal ganglia then out perception of time is very much effected rather like a broken stopwatch. If the neural impulses in our brains are sped up the time seems to slow down like when for example adrenalin is released when we are falling off a horse; it feels as though it takes ages to hit the ground.

Time researcher Sean Hinton of Duke University said he was driving and he had an accident and he said it seemed to take forever to make the impact because his brain chemistry had sped up.

But when the brain dies along with its basal ganglia then the perception of time will then your neural impulses will do much more than the very opposite, they will stop altogether, and instead of time slowing down it will speed up infinitely, until we wake up.

But how can we wake up with our brains dead, this is some kid of a paradox isn't it? Well I have a theory that the information processes that booted your sense of self into existence may well become paralleled by another brain as there is no material in you brain on a subatomic level that is truly unique and we really do not own a single atom in our bodies. With all your life's memories totally obliterated you we naturally forget that you have ever been born in the first place, so there is no way of knowing your place in the universe after you die. You will switch to a new trajectory through space and time as though it is a whole new experience and with all memories of any previous existence, and questions you may of asked about the what happens when we die will go on unanswered and so the question 2.Is there a part of us that goes on after we end? will be a totally meaningless and fruitless as it we go on unanswered.

crocodile deathroll

.

99Percent

Also, I recently realized the perception of existence is only relative to the perceiver. This means that our individual existence ultimately is infinite in relation to our conscious awareness to it. So we do live forever after all

Infinity Lover

Okay Okay relax... here's my answers..

[QUESTION ONE]
1: How do you think?

With your brain, and that works almost the same as with a computer! The brain receives information (input) through the senses, remembers or forgets it (storage), transforms it into another shape (processing), and releases it (output) through emotion, expression and movement. You can think positive (+) and use your observations to judge your thoughts by, think negative (-) and use your thoughts to judge your observations by, but also think things through by creating (!) and interpreting (?) thought. Those thoughts and information can be truth or lie(!), or you can be in doubt of that (?). The truth is, you have to be sure (!) about what you're in doubt of (?). Even if you're not sure(?) wether a criterium applies, you can be sure (!) that everything does or doesn't answer to certain criteria. If you deliberately mix up certainty and doubt, you're no longer being entirely truthful, so you'd be lying. To tell the truth, you'll have to honestly admit you think in certainty (!) and doubt (?).
-You can't make certainty out of uncertainty, by believing doubt is fact! Something (1) can't come out of nothing(0).-

[QUESTION TWO]
2. What happens to us when we die?

Nothing and nobody is perfect. Nothing and nobody lasts forever. Everything and everyone has limitations!
-Don't expect to go on after you end! Something can't come out of nothing.-

[QUESTION THREE]
3: Does a certain part of us live on after we die?

Yes; the way in wich you are remembered by others, and the creations you leave behind. It's up to you to make your legacy into a beautiful and valuable thing!
- Make something Of this one life you have! Something cant come out of nothing.-

[QUESTION FOUR]
4:Where did it all come from?

Everywhere and nowhere. Nothing lacks everything. Everything can't come out of nothing. Something can't come out of nothing. Nothing can come out of nothing. Nothing is nothing so it isn't an option either. You can only lose yourself over nothing. Everything isn't an option either, but every option. Infinity is there for us to come to terms with. If you can't, just start counting untill you can. The counting would have to start, and stop, somewhere, sometime, somehow. The count intself can't and won't. Try to get a grasp on infinity in any way, and you'll be busy untill your dying day, and that would be a shame. Existence never really began anywhere, and it will never truelly stop anywhere either. Existense wasn't created, and it didn't become either, it didn't come period, and it won't go either!
- Don't waste your life wondering how it all came about. Something can't come out of nothing.-

[QUESTION FIVE]
5: Who are we?

We're all humans and we're all individuals. No one is worth more, or less, then anyone else. We're all the same, but in a different way. We are mankind!
-You can't make yourself worth more then someone else, without making that someone else worth less then you! Something can't come out of nothing.-

[QUESTION SIX]
6. Why are we here?

"To be?" You only have to be yourself. Or "Not to be"? Patience my friend, that day will inevitably come. To become? You don't have to become anything. You may try to become anything you like, but you can't always succeed in becoming what you'd like, or remain it. So you'll always end up becoming something, even if it's a big nothing. Just don't become a hermit. To belong? BIG mistake! There will always be other's who don't want to belong where you belong; regardless of how tight and just your group is. Form even one group, and there's automaticly two, and soon more. Belonging results in 'us and them', and that's 'us against them', group conflict or war, waiting to happen! We're not here "to be" or "not to be", or to become, because that'll all automaticly happen. We're most certainly not here to belong, because that'll automaticly go wrong! We are here to be together!
-You can't create unity, only destroy it, war can only happen if there is a 'them' to fight! Something can't come out of nothing-

[QUESTION SEVEN]
7.How should we live?

Life is about choices and knowledge to base those choices on. The more your thoughts and choices are governed by doubt, the more negative your attitude, behaviour, and impact on your environment will be. Thoughts based on certainty are positive thoughts, choices based on facts are wise choices and have positive impact. If we live our lives according to lies we jeapordize our existence. We should live our lives as honestly as humanly possible! Because we know how we think!

[QUESTION EIGHT]
8.What does the future offer?

History is there to learn from, for in the future. But history is just a trace of the past, the past isn't here anymore, and the future isn't here yet. Only the present is. The future offers promises and problems; neither of which you can be sure of! The here and now is all you can be certain of!
-Don't expect the past to return, or try to predict the future. Learn now, about then, so it doesn't have to come back later-

Don't think in terms of mine are wrong and yours are right, just compare.

[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: Marcel Rombouts ]</p>