Freethought & Rationalism Archive

philechat · 04-24-2003, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo
Blondegodess,
I think you have a lot of different family and social pressures than other atheists. I find on these boards, the farther South an atheist is the more hostile they are to Christianity. I was raised in the North East. My Mother is a neo-pagan and a liberal democrat. My parents divorced and my mother dated an atheist for a long time. When I became a born again Christian my mother wouldn't speak to me for a while. She approached her UU pastor about what to do, as if I had joined a cult.
So I think becoming an athiest in the midst of a Devout Christian family in the South is more of a volitile situation than say a single college student in the North East, raised in a secular or liberal home deiciding that she is an atheist.

I would say if my son or daughter decided to become "born-again" I would discuss with him/her directly rather than cut off communications altogether. I will make sure that they will not dismiss other kinds of believers (and non-believers) as in any ways evil or morally deficient, and I will encourage them to engage in interfaith relationships both casual and intimate. I think to isolate oneself in the environment of only one kind of believers (or only members of their own culture) to be extremely unhealthy.

wildernesse · 04-24-2003, 11:06 AM

Starboy and Biff:

It doesn't seem that we're going to come to an understanding. I do see the world differently from you, there's no denying it.

I do appreciate your helping me to see your side of things, and how you see what I believe. Obviously, I disagree with your perception of my position.

While you might feel that I am perfectly illustrating the OP, I truly don't feel any animosity or hostility towards non-Christians and don't discriminate towards them through my actions. I don't know that I can clarify my position any further than I have in my previous posts, and at this point would just be further repeating myself.

If you (or anyone else) have any other direct questions, I would be glad to answer them as best I can.

--tibac

mike_decock · 04-24-2003, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo
When I became a born again Christian my mother wouldn't speak to me for a while. She approached her UU pastor about what to do, as if I had joined a cult.

Cult:

Quote:

1.
a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

[Christianity is considered false by almost 70% of the world]
[Jesus is the charismatic leader of this cult]

b. The followers of such a religion or sect.

2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.

[Christianity is definitely a system of religious worship and ritual]

3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.

4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.

5.
a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
[Christians are certainly obsessive in their devotion to Jesus and Christian principles]
b. The object of such devotion.

6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

If it walks like a cult and talks like a cult... it's a cult.

-Mike...

Jamie_L · 04-24-2003, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath
I merely ask them to produce their proof. Sadly, no theist has ever complied with this request.

And here is where you will have the disagreement with the theist. The theist will offer you logical proofs, proof from "historical" religious texts, proof from internal experience. To which you will respond, "that's not proof." At which point, you are saying the theist is wrong.

As you might tell, I've got issues with some versions of "weak" atheism. But even granting the reality of this kind of weak atheism, it's existence is still going to be an adversarial position from a theist's perspective.

Jamie

Starboy · 04-24-2003, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wildernesse
....
While you might feel that I am perfectly illustrating the OP, I truly don't feel any animosity or hostility towards non-Christians and don't discriminate towards them through my actions. I don't know that I can clarify my position any further than I have in my previous posts, and at this point would just be further repeating myself.
....
--tibac

Please don't get me wrong. I am not saying that you discriminate deliberately, all I am saying is that discrimination is woven into the fabric of judgmental religions and at best its adherents must fight an uphill battle to keep it under control. Most appear to have failed miserably.

Starboy

Starboy · 04-24-2003, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie_L
And here is where you will have the disagreement with the theist. The theist will offer you logical proofs, proof from "historical" religious texts, proof from internal experience. To which you will respond, "that's not proof." At which point, you are saying the theist is wrong.

...

Jamie

In that case I wouldn't say that the theist is wrong. I would simply say that they can't provide appropriate evidence to backup their supernatural "truth" claims. What makes them frauds is to insist such claims are the "truth" on such flimsy evidence. They can claim anything they want but at least have the honesty and integrity not to confuse faith with reality or "truth". This is the twenty first century after all. In this day and age we know better.

Starboy

wildernesse · 04-24-2003, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy
Please don't get me wrong. I am not saying that you discriminate deliberately, all I am saying is that discrimination is woven into the fabric of judgmental religions and at best its adherents must fight an uphill battle to keep it under control. Most appear to have failed miserably.

Starboy

I think that discrimination against "other" is woven into the fabric of humankind, as it is a survival mechanism to promote you and your group over "them". I agree that humans, as a whole, have to fight an uphill battle to keep it under control. Religions can strengthen or weaken that battle, and I agree that many tend towards strengthening their own than tearing down the notion of "other".

--tibac

Starboy · 04-24-2003, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wildernesse
I think that discrimination against "other" is woven into the fabric of humankind, as it is a survival mechanism to promote you and your group over "them". I agree that humans, as a whole, have to fight an uphill battle to keep it under control. Religions can strengthen or weaken that battle, and I agree that many tend towards strengthening their own than tearing down the notion of "other".

--tibac

Couldn't agree more, since IMO religion is the creation of man.

Starboy

wildernesse · 04-24-2003, 01:03 PM

Starboy,

Well, religions certainly don't seem to be much different than other human cultural phenomena. While not technically negating a Divine something or other completely, it does lessen the likelihood that anyone completely knows what they're talking about.

--tibac

Starboy · 04-24-2003, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wildernesse
Starboy,

Well, religions certainly don't seem to be much different than other human cultural phenomena. While not technically negating a Divine something or other completely, it does lessen the likelihood that anyone completely knows what they're talking about.

--tibac

Indeed, or that they know what they are talking about in any way whatsoever. As such any "truth" claims are specious at best and fraudulent at worst.

Starboy

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04-24-2003, 11:06 AM	#182
wildernesse Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,578	Starboy and Biff: It doesn't seem that we're going to come to an understanding. I do see the world differently from you, there's no denying it. I do appreciate your helping me to see your side of things, and how you see what I believe. Obviously, I disagree with your perception of my position. While you might feel that I am perfectly illustrating the OP, I truly don't feel any animosity or hostility towards non-Christians and don't discriminate towards them through my actions. I don't know that I can clarify my position any further than I have in my previous posts, and at this point would just be further repeating myself. If you (or anyone else) have any other direct questions, I would be glad to answer them as best I can. --tibac

04-24-2003, 01:03 PM	#189
wildernesse Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,578	Starboy, Well, religions certainly don't seem to be much different than other human cultural phenomena. While not technically negating a Divine something or other completely, it does lessen the likelihood that anyone completely knows what they're talking about. --tibac

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