Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Syphor · 04-06-2003, 09:03 PM

This includes Kurds even though I don't really consider the Kurds to be 'Saddam's own people'.

I say greater than 10 and less than 50 thousand. Still atrocious, but not as bad as this 2 Million nonsense I am hearing constantly. It also shows how ridiculous comparisons to Hitler (7 Million) and Stalin (20+ Million) are.

RED DAVE · 04-06-2003, 09:52 PM

Yup, right up there with the Nicaraguan Conrtas, the Death Squads in El Salavador, the regimes in Guatamala and Honduras and a few other love affairs Bush and Company have had through the years.

RED DAVE

Jesse · 04-06-2003, 10:14 PM

Please read this NYTimes article which tries to break these numbers down:

How Many People Has Hussein Killed?

The figures of "millions" are largely based on Iraqi soldiers who died in wars initiated by Saddam. However, the number of people who have been permanently "disappeared" by his secret police is estimated at around 200,000, and then you might add things like the killing of Kurds or the killing of rebelling Iraqis during the first Gulf War or the draining of the swamps in southern Iraq which destroyed the livelihoods of thousands of so-called "Marsh Arabs". There is no justification for giving an estimate of less than a few hundred thousand.

As for comparisons to other dictators like Hitler or Stalin, surely it makes more sense to look at the fraction of the population killed than the total number killed? Quantifying how "bad" a given dictator is obviously isn't an exact science, but for some arguments about what comparisons are the most relevant, see this blog entry:

http://www.matthewyglesias.com/archives/002953.html

No matter which comparison you look at, it's probably true that Saddam is not "in the same league" as Hitler or Stalin, but it's also probably true that he's one of the worst in the world today.

Henry-Finland · 04-07-2003, 02:32 AM

How many people has the ____ administration killed by it's decisions?
How many of their own people has the ____ administration killed by it's decisions?

Think about the homeless, the old people, the people that has lived in misery.
Think about Jeltsin, who with his associates robbed the people, the pensioners etc. If You are in St Petersburg or Moscow as a turist, go out, if You dare, 5.00 in the morning and You will see the homeless children. Multiply that with 10 or 40 and You get the figures how many there was when Jeltsin ruled.
In those days a hit-man costed 10 USD! They were 10 - 12 year old that took contracts, some 3 years ago.

If Thatcher, Reagan, or Holkeri (a stupid Finnish politician) or who ever, that makes political decisions that does mean that there is hungry people in the streets, that there is people that does not get a proper education..., well these politicians are murderers.
They murder those that have no chance to fight for their rights, the right to live a decent life.
They murder those who needs most protection.

These guys have a solution: Join The Iron Heel and Fist, learn to supress the other poor ones, jail Your brother, fuck up Your grandmother.
Enlist, and You get food, shelter and education..., except if You are too old..., then You are not needed, You are one of the "other ones", not the selected ones.
Do not care about the third world, it is not our race, it is not our case!
Just follow orders! We are the goodie-good ones, trust us and the green-back dollar!
______________________________

Let's have here a vote for Baby-Bush as well. The only place he should be voted for.

Thank You for reading.

Henry

ex-idaho · 04-07-2003, 02:35 AM

The numbers that the pro-war people throw around include the people lost in the Iran-Iraq war in the 80's. That war was sponsored by the US and both sides recieved weapons from us. So dosen't that make the US responsible for those deaths? Atleast partly?

Syphor · 04-07-2003, 04:42 AM

They might include Iraqi deaths under UN sanctions as well. Pro war groups often like to accuse Hussein of taking all the oil-for-food money and building palaces, WMD etc whilst starving his people even though he doesn't see a cent of that money. IIRC it went into a fund which was then used to purchase food aid to be distributed to the Iraqi populace by aid agencies.

Quote:

The figures of "millions" are largely based on Iraqi soldiers who died in wars initiated by Saddam. However, the number of people who have been permanently "disappeared" by his secret police is estimated at around 200,000

The source you offered that claimed this figure cited Amnesty International, yet it didn't link me to a study done by that organization to verify the claim of 200,000. I'll take it with a grain of salt. I also can't imagine it would be an easy thing to document such a figure in such an oppressive country like Iraq, so that figure comes off as speculation just as much as my 10-50 thousand figure does. Still, if an Iraqi is not perceived by the regime to be a direct threat to Saddam Hussein�s power base, or related to someone that is, then they should be perfectly fine. With that in mind I have a hard time understanding why 200,000 individuals would be seen to directly challenge Saddam Hussein knowing full well the tyrant he is; the figure seems too high.

Quote:

No matter which comparison you look at, it's probably true that Saddam is not "in the same league" as Hitler or Stalin, but it's also probably true that he's one of the worst in the world today.

Well yes, but he isn't much compared to the likes of Suharto or Pol Pot either. Just putting things into perspective here.

Loren Pechtel · 04-07-2003, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by Syphor
They might include Iraqi deaths under UN sanctions as well. Pro war groups often like to accuse Hussein of taking all the oil-for-food money and building palaces, WMD etc whilst starving his people even though he doesn't see a cent of that money. IIRC it went into a fund which was then used to purchase food aid to be distributed to the Iraqi populace by aid agencies.

Take the goods imported under the oil for food program and export them again to make money.

He certainly had some illegitimate source of money.

The source you offered that claimed this figure cited Amnesty International, yet it didn't link me to a study done by that organization to verify the claim of 200,000. I'll take it with a grain of salt.

Yeah, AI's data needs to be taken with salt--they are far too willing to accept the word of those who want it to look bad.

Jesse · 04-07-2003, 02:46 PM

Syphor:
The source you offered that claimed this figure cited Amnesty International, yet it didn't link me to a study done by that organization to verify the claim of 200,000. I'll take it with a grain of salt.

The source was the New York Times, a print newspaper, so of course there was no weblink. And you're misrembering, it didn't cite Amnesty International at all:

Quote:

Accounts collected by Western human rights groups from Iraqi �migr�s and defectors have suggested that the number of those who have "disappeared" into the hands of the secret police, never to be heard from again, could be 200,000.

It is unfortunate that they don't go into detail about the source, but newspaper articles usually don't. I did a little googling and found similar figures in a number of places, but the closest I came to a print source was this quote from Ken Pollack's book The Threatening Storm:

Quote:

This is a regime that will gouge out the eyes of children to force confessions from their parents and grandparents. This a regime that will crush all of the bones in the feet of a 2-year-old girl to force her mother to divulge her father's whereabouts. This is a regime that will hold a nursing baby at arm's length from its mother and allow the child to starve to death to force the mother to confess. This is a regime that will burn a person's limbs off to force him to confess or comply. This is a regime that will slowly lower its victims into huge vats of acid, either to break their will or simply as a means of execution. This is a regime that applies electric shocks to the bodies of its victims, particularly their genitals, with great creativity. This is a regime that in 2000 decreed that the crime of criticizing the regime, which can be as harmless as suggesting that Saddam's clothing does not match, will be punished by cutting out the offender's tongue. This is a regime that practices systematic rape against its female victims. This is a regime that will drag in a man's wife, daughter or other female relative and repeatedly rape her in front of him. This is a regime that will force a white-hot metal rod into a person's anus or other orifices. This is a regime that employs thalium poisoning, widely considered one of the most excruciating ways to die. This is a regime that will behead a young mother in the street in front of her house and children because her husband was suspected of opposing the regime. This is a regime that used chemical warfare on its own Kurdish citizens, not just on the 15,000 killed and maimed at Halabja but on scores of other villages all across Kurdistan. This is a regime that tested chemical and biological warfare agents on Iranian prisoners of war, using the POWs in controlled experiments to determine the best ways to disperse the agents to inflict the greatest damages.

This is the fate that awaits thousands of Iraqis each year. The roughest estimates are that over the last 20 years more than 200,000 people have disappeared into Saddam's prison system, never to be heard from again. Hundreds of thousands of others were taken away and, after unforgettable bouts of torture that left them psychologically and often physically mangled, eventually were released or escaped. To give a sense of scale, just the numbers of Iraqis never heard from again would be equivalent to about 2.5 million Americans suffering such a fate.

I went to the bookstore this afternoon and found this section of the book--the source he gives for the 200,000 figure (along with the 'hundreds of thousands of others' tortured) is the "European Report on the Situation in Iraq" courtesy of the "International Alliance for Justice News Service". That report can be found here:

http://www.iraq.net/erica/news-e/archives/00000198.htm

It's not clear to me whether the IAJ was actually involved in researching this report or if they're just commenting on it in this article. Here's the introductory section along with the 200,000 figure:

Quote:

On April 21st and 22nd 2002, European Parliament�s Committee on Foreign Affairs, Human Rights, Common Security and Defense Policy examined and voted on amendments to the resolutions and the report entitled �The situation in Iraq, eleven years after the Gulf War�.

International Alliance for Justice (IAJ) supports the final report that was presented by Baroness Emma Nicholson, Member of the European Parliament, and was voted on unanimously by the Committee.

IAJ wishes to thank the members of the European Parliament and in particular the deputies of the Green Party, the European People�s Party, the European Democrats and the European Liberal Democratic Reform Party who all contributed to the success of this report. These MEPs speak out strongly against Saddam Hussein�s regime by stressing his extreme violence and repression, as have the victims been doing for years. However, IAJ was surprised that part of the deputies abstained on this report which condemns the grave and massive violations committed by the Iraqi regime.

The majority of the deputies added several important points to the resolution text:

...

- the large number of disappearances (over 200 000 people) is the greatest number of disappearances known in any country of the world

I also found this article by the IAJ:

A New Mass grave Found in Iraq Kurdistan

Quote:

Since the end of the Gulf War, the Kurds have found dozens of mass graves in
the area under their control in Sulaimaniya, Arbil, Duhok and Kirkuk
provinces. The mass graves of Koreme, Goptapa, Baharka, Shaqlawa and the_
Asphalt factory of Arbil are just few examples of the Iraqi regime's_
atrocities._ Many of the bodies were victims of the Iraqi governments use of_
chemical weapon.

The Iraqi government has a world record in the area of forcible_
disappearances._ The Iraqi regime is responsible for the disappearances of_
more than 200,000 Kurds in the Anfal campaigns in 1988 mostly in Germiyan,
Kirkuk province; the deportation of Feyli Kurds in 1980 from Baghdad and its
surroundings; the disappearance of over 7,000 Barzanis in 1983 during the
attack on Qushtapa camp in Arbil and many other Iraqis from the Southern and Central part of Iraq.

So, I think it may be that the 200,000 they referred to in the "European Report" is the same 200,000 Kurds they report as disappeared "in the Anfal campaigns in 1988" here. That idea is also supported by this article from the New York Post, which among other crimes mentions the following:

Quote:

Nearly 200,000 people are "missing" in Iraq, most of them Kurds who vanished during the ethnic cleansing of the 1988 Anfal campaign. Compare that to the 9,000 who were disappeared by the Argentine junta or the 3,000 "desparacidos" of Pinochet's Chile. Or, for that matter, the 10,000 Albanian dead in Kosovo.

Syphor:
I also can't imagine it would be an easy thing to document such a figure in such an oppressive country like Iraq, so that figure comes off as speculation just as much as my 10-50 thousand figure does.

Except that your figure seems to come off the top of your head rather than from any sources. I haven't been able to find explicitly what methodology was used in coming up with the estimate of 200,000, but I doubt it was simply a wild guess. If it does refer mostly to Kurds who disappeared in the Anfal campaign, then the fact that Kurdistan has been independent of Saddam's Iraq since the first Gulf War would make it easier to document. An article I mentioned above referred to mass graves, and here is another IAJ article which suggests where the evidence may come from:

Quote:

For almost a decade, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in Iraq, working with extremely limited resources, has documented grave violations of human rights by the Iraqi government.

The Kurds seized during the uprising of 1991, 14 tons of Iraqi documents on the genocide committed against them, the Kuwaitis also have five tons of documents, human rights groups and the allied forces of the Gulf War have many documents and audiovisual evidence, most of which is available on CD-ROMs on the Iraqi regime�s crimes.

The evidence is overwhelming, and no one, except associates of Saddam Hussein, can deny that the Iraqi regime has committed war crimes, genocide and crimes against humanity.

Syphor:
Still, if an Iraqi is not perceived by the regime to be a direct threat to Saddam Hussein�s power base, or related to someone that is, then they should be perfectly fine. With that in mind I have a hard time understanding why 200,000 individuals would be seen to directly challenge Saddam Hussein knowing full well the tyrant he is; the figure seems too high.

If I'm right that the 200,000 figure refers mostly to Kurds killed in the Anfal Campaign, would that make it easier to understand? On the subjects for arrests, remember that this is a police state and that a "direct challenge" to Hussein's authority is hardly required--any sort of negative comment overheard by or reported to authorities could easily land a person in trouble. Look at section 6 of this IAJ report on crimes against humanity in Iraq:

Quote:

Arrests can occur at any time of day or night and in any location, but usually at the victim's home.
Arrests take place on a large scale throughout the country.

Typical conditions of arrest reported to us by the witnesses are as follows:
- there is no ground for the arrest;
- the families are not informed of the arrest or are only aware
because members of the family were present when their
relative was abducted;
- the place of detention is almost always secret;
- most detainees cannot receive visits from their families.
_
Arrests are made by:
- the General Security Directorate,
- the military securit y services,
- the military intelligence services,
- the Ba'th Party militia,
- the Fidayi Saddam,
- the Mukhabarat (secret service).
_
The reasons given by the regime for arresting and detaining people, if any, are often vague. It is always difficult for the families to obtain information. The witnesses we spoke to took every precaution so that nothing they said could be traced back to them, for fear of reprisals against their families.
_
However, based on the testimonies of the witnesses we met, we can cite the following reasons for arrest:
- A family connection with a person who is sought by the authorities, who has been arrested or who has left the country;
- A connection with Ayatollah Mohammed Sadeq Sadr or the networks or associations that supported him (see paragraph above on the death of the Ayatollah and its consequences);
- Direct or indirect participation in the uprising of the provinces in March 1991;< BR>- Suspicion that a person does not fully support the regime, or criticism of the regime or of a member of Saddam Hussein's family, particularly by army officers;
- Any act or spoken or written word displeasing to the members of the security services or Saddam Hussein's family;
- Membership of "the opposition";
- Refusal to register as an Arab in the Kurdish regions of Kirkuk, Khanaqin and Sinjar.
_
Men and women are arrested and detained for long periods:
- without being informed of the charges against them ;
- without appearing before a judge ;
- without access to a lawyer.
_
Torture is systematic and after a person is released, he or she is often harassed and arrested several more times, or tortured or executed if he or she refuses to act as an informer. An arrest is usually the start of a vicious circle of repression, from which the victims and their families have no choice but to flee.
After an arrest, the families are constantly intimidated: other family members are arrested and beaten, their ration cards are taken away, their possessions are confiscated, they are banned from enrolling in university or expelled from school, "disappeared", etc..
_
Minors are also arrested and detained simply because they are related to an arrested person, especially when he or she is a suspected member of the opposition.

Jesse:
No matter which comparison you look at, it's probably true that Saddam is not "in the same league" as Hitler or Stalin, but it's also probably true that he's one of the worst in the world today.

Syphor:
Well yes, but he isn't much compared to the likes of Suharto or Pol Pot either. Just putting things into perspective here.

Well, in terms of proportion of the population killed, even Hitler and Stalin "weren't much" compared to Pol Pot.

View Poll Results: How many of his own people did Saddam directly kill?
Less than 10,000	2	9.09%
Between 10,000 and 50,000	6	27.27%
Between 50,000 and 200,000	3	13.64%
Between 200,000 and 1,000,000	8	36.36%
Greater than 1,000,000	3	13.64%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

04-06-2003, 09:03 PM	#1
Syphor Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 991	So how many of his own people did Saddam directly kill? This includes Kurds even though I don't really consider the Kurds to be 'Saddam's own people'. I say greater than 10 and less than 50 thousand. Still atrocious, but not as bad as this 2 Million nonsense I am hearing constantly. It also shows how ridiculous comparisons to Hitler (7 Million) and Stalin (20+ Million) are.

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04-06-2003, 09:52 PM	#2
RED DAVE Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 10,532	Yup, right up there with the Nicaraguan Conrtas, the Death Squads in El Salavador, the regimes in Guatamala and Honduras and a few other love affairs Bush and Company have had through the years. RED DAVE

04-06-2003, 10:14 PM	#3
Jesse Moderator - Science Discussions Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Providence, RI, USA Posts: 9,908	Please read this NYTimes article which tries to break these numbers down: How Many People Has Hussein Killed? The figures of "millions" are largely based on Iraqi soldiers who died in wars initiated by Saddam. However, the number of people who have been permanently "disappeared" by his secret police is estimated at around 200,000, and then you might add things like the killing of Kurds or the killing of rebelling Iraqis during the first Gulf War or the draining of the swamps in southern Iraq which destroyed the livelihoods of thousands of so-called "Marsh Arabs". There is no justification for giving an estimate of less than a few hundred thousand. As for comparisons to other dictators like Hitler or Stalin, surely it makes more sense to look at the fraction of the population killed than the total number killed? Quantifying how "bad" a given dictator is obviously isn't an exact science, but for some arguments about what comparisons are the most relevant, see this blog entry: http://www.matthewyglesias.com/archives/002953.html No matter which comparison you look at, it's probably true that Saddam is not "in the same league" as Hitler or Stalin, but it's also probably true that he's one of the worst in the world today.

04-07-2003, 02:32 AM	#4
Henry-Finland Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Finland Posts: 7,018	How many people has the ____ administration killed by it's decisions? How many of their own people has the ____ administration killed by it's decisions? Think about the homeless, the old people, the people that has lived in misery. Think about Jeltsin, who with his associates robbed the people, the pensioners etc. If You are in St Petersburg or Moscow as a turist, go out, if You dare, 5.00 in the morning and You will see the homeless children. Multiply that with 10 or 40 and You get the figures how many there was when Jeltsin ruled. In those days a hit-man costed 10 USD! They were 10 - 12 year old that took contracts, some 3 years ago. If Thatcher, Reagan, or Holkeri (a stupid Finnish politician) or who ever, that makes political decisions that does mean that there is hungry people in the streets, that there is people that does not get a proper education..., well these politicians are murderers. They murder those that have no chance to fight for their rights, the right to live a decent life. They murder those who needs most protection. These guys have a solution: Join The Iron Heel and Fist, learn to supress the other poor ones, jail Your brother, fuck up Your grandmother. Enlist, and You get food, shelter and education..., except if You are too old..., then You are not needed, You are one of the "other ones", not the selected ones. Do not care about the third world, it is not our race, it is not our case! Just follow orders! We are the goodie-good ones, trust us and the green-back dollar! ______________________________ Let's have here a vote for Baby-Bush as well. The only place he should be voted for. Thank You for reading. Henry

04-07-2003, 02:35 AM	#5
ex-idaho Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Spudtopia, ID Posts: 5,315	The numbers that the pro-war people throw around include the people lost in the Iran-Iraq war in the 80's. That war was sponsored by the US and both sides recieved weapons from us. So dosen't that make the US responsible for those deaths? Atleast partly?

04-07-2003, 12:15 PM	#7
Loren Pechtel Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Not Mayaned Posts: 96,752	Originally posted by Syphor They might include Iraqi deaths under UN sanctions as well. Pro war groups often like to accuse Hussein of taking all the oil-for-food money and building palaces, WMD etc whilst starving his people even though he doesn't see a cent of that money. IIRC it went into a fund which was then used to purchase food aid to be distributed to the Iraqi populace by aid agencies. Take the goods imported under the oil for food program and export them again to make money. He certainly had some illegitimate source of money. The source you offered that claimed this figure cited Amnesty International, yet it didn't link me to a study done by that organization to verify the claim of 200,000. I'll take it with a grain of salt. Yeah, AI's data needs to be taken with salt--they are far too willing to accept the word of those who want it to look bad.

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