cheetah

Play acting at a game where you are a hunter and someone of the opposite sex is prey, further degraded or disarmed by lack of clothing, not to mention equating women to animals, which as humane as some of us are, we almost all typically ascribe to a feeling of superiority over non-human animals, doesn't indicate to you any feelings of superiority on the part of these males over females? If they were mixed gender, I would agree. If they were all armed, I would agree. But, this is obviously about feeling superior and powerful to your prey, members of the opposite sex, hence male supremacy. Now, I won't forget that this IS just play-acting, but "many a truth is said in jest" and all that, to where I would personally not feel safe or moral for interacting with males that felt the need to have that kind of artificial superiority. You are, of course, right, that it is within their rights and all, but there is not doubt that there is a significant difference from BDSM, due to the team aspect and that it is always the men that are armed and have the option of being clothed, which is not necessarily the case with BDSM.

cheetah

MSNBC article

So, posting pictures of nude women mounted on walls like animals does not imply male supremacy?

Monkeybot

They have the right to engage in this behaviour, as long as everyone's consenting... and I have the right to express my opinion that, if it's for real, it's appallingly misogynistic.

Nobody's rights are being violated in this exchange.

Derec

They are there by their own will. Noone is forcing them to participate.

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But, this is obviously about feeling superior and powerful to your prey, members of the opposite sex, hence male supremacy. Now, I won't forget that this IS just play-acting, but "many a truth is said in jest" and all that, to where I would personally not feel safe or moral for interacting with males that felt the need to have that kind of artificial superiority.

How about the oposite case? What about dominant women?

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You are, of course, right, that it is within their rights and all, but there is not doubt that there is a significant difference from BDSM, due to the team aspect and that it is always the men that are armed and have the option of being clothed, which is not necessarily the case with BDSM.

I am not into BDMS, so I don't have first person experience, but it is my understanding that there are men and women who are exclusively dom or sub or enjoy both. So there are women that are always sub and men that are always dom (and vice versa).

And if there is sufficient interest there could very well be a reverse or mixed gender hunting range. I certainly would not go up in arms if women would go shoot with paintballs at naked men for fun. However, I doubt that many would be interested.

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So, posting pictures of nude women mounted on walls like animals does not imply male supremacy?

As much as dom women riding the sub men like horses or leading them on a leash like dogs.

It's a fetish, and not even mine. You don't have to like it. But I am a firm supporter in personal liberties and poeple, man and women, making their own decisions.

UMoC

cheetah

I'm not questioning whether anyone is being forced. I believe the question at hand is whether or not the men involved are male supremacists.
see below

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I am not into BDMS, so I don't have first person experience, but it is my understanding that there are men and women who are exclusively dom or sub or enjoy both. So there are women that are always sub and men that are always dom (and vice versa).

It's not whether one person is always dom or sub, it's that one sex always is dom or sub, regardless of the individual. In BDMS, you don't say, What sex are ou? Or you're dom, then. In this game, you do. Why? because it is all about giving men a feeling of superiority over women, whereas BDMS is giving an individual feelings about another individual, it's not based on their sex or gender.

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As much as dom women riding the sub men like horses or leading them on a leash like dogs. It's a fetish, and not even mine. You don't have to like it. But I am a firm supporter in personal liberties and poeple, man and women, making their own decisions. UMoC

Of course, just as we can have any opinions about anything we want. I am simply stating that I think your lack of ability to draw a a parallel between this and "male supremacy" as a theoretical concept is silly. This is obviously the picture of male supremacy, particularly due to it's gender based roles, as opposed to individual-based. I thought the worst part was when, near the beginning of the thread you stated that it's not a masculinist thing, because no masculinist movement exists! Wow, THAT'S circular reasoning. Well, by the definition you later gave of what a masculinist movement would do IF it did exist, fine, this is not masculinist, but the fact remains that it is all about creating an atmosphere of male supremacy, glorifying the treatment of women as lower life forms.

Derec

And that is the point I do not agree with. One can play that game without thinking of women as "lower life forms".

The same thing ("degrading" and whatnot) has been argued for strip-clubs as well.

UMoC

cheetah

How can you disagree that they are treating women like lower life forms? You an only disagree if you think non-human animals are discriminated against and should be given full and eqaul rights under the constitution. These women are CLEARLY being equated to and treated as non-human animals which are almost universally treated as lower life forms, definitely universally when someone is hunting them. When people go hunting in real life, they are hunting something they do not have equal respect for with themselves (i.e. they do not believe they deserve equal rights under the constitution). Clearly, this game equates women with those prey (as opposed to say a war game, which is different, and which is the normal use for paintball, and which is entirely different that this model), therefore lower life form. I don't see how you can miss that this is exactly modeled off that.

Again, even though this disgusts me, it is everyone's right, and my morality is strictly if it doesn't hurt someone, there's nothing wrong with it. Nevertheless, I have disdain for people who like to systematically treat the opposite sex as a lower life form.

Mad Lion

And I reserve the right to state that it is disgusting and appalling, and that the decisions these people are engaging in are perpetuating attitudes and behavior that I find to be morally repugnant.

What is your problem with that?

Derec

Because it's just a game. "Treating ... like lower life forms" means, to me at least, a more serious behavioral pattern. I.e. in real life. By your logic regular paintballers are shooting other people and therefore have no respect for human life.

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You an only disagree if you think non-human animals are discriminated against and should be given full and eqaul rights under the constitution.

No, of course not.

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These women are CLEARLY being equated to and treated as non-human animals which are almost universally treated as lower life forms, definitely universally when someone is hunting them.

I think you interpret too much into it.

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When people go hunting in real life, they are hunting something they do not have equal respect for with themselves (i.e. they do not believe they deserve equal rights under the constitution).

And when people shoot at other people in real life then they are enemies. When they shoot at each other in a game of paintball they are often friends.

Most people can distinguish between game and reality. That's why things like Quake/CS/etc or regular paintball or bambi hunt are not problematic.

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Clearly, this game equates women with those prey (as opposed to say a war game, which is different, and which is the normal use for paintball, and which is entirely different that this model), therefore lower life form. I don't see how you can miss that this is exactly modeled off that.

The point is not what it is modeled after. The point is that it is a game, a non-real thing. Playing it does not imply a secret desire to do that in real life. Much like playing Quake does not imply a desire to go ona murdering rampage.

Frankly, if someone thinks that women should not get an education, work, stay at home unless acompanied by a male relative, that is a misogynist.
A person playing a bambi hunt game is not one necessarily.

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Again, even though this disgusts me, it is everyone's right, and my morality is strictly if it doesn't hurt someone, there's nothing wrong with it.

Yes.

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Nevertheless, I have disdain for people who like to systematically treat the opposite sex as a lower life form.

I would agree with that sentence as it stands, but I do not think that these games, by themselves, equal that.

UMoC

cheetah

I disagree. With violence, yes, people often don't want to do that in real life. But, with sexual things, I don't think that is true.

In addition, whether they kill them or not, like in hunting, is not the point (that's the part that doesn't translate over into "real life"). They ARE in real life treating the women like lower life forms because they are treating them like non-human animals. Just like in paintball games, you ARE treating your friends like the enemy (but aren't really killing them), you ARE treating these women as unequals. And to me, there is something much more insidiuous about treating other human beings systematically as if they are non-human animals, that is worse than treating a friend as an enemy. At least enemies are still human.